wondering if there are any loopholes for dual citizenship

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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lizm
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wondering if there are any loopholes for dual citizenship

Postby lizm » 30 Aug 2008, 16:51

hi all! sorry this is long, but it's been on my heart for a long time so i'm just going to run it by!

i've had this idea of dual citizenship on my heart and mind for the past several years, and it resurfaces once in a while but i've never been serious about trying to pursue it...most recently i am interested as i'm trying to obtain a visa for an internship i have over there (truly a frustrating disaster so far).

my grandfather is of italian descent, and that fueled the fire of my love for anything italian. i studied abroad in italy from 06-07 and fell in love with it all. i studied italian all throughout college and just recently graduated with a double major, one of which is italian. despite its imperfections, you can't help but love that country!

basically, my story is this. my maternal great-grandfather was an italian citizen from calabria, and when he was around 17 he came to the US to work on the railroad. he went back and forth, and eventually married my italian great-grandmother, with whom he then had several children, continuing to go back and forth from italy to the US. eventually he brought my great-grandmother over with the children they had at that point, and everyone was then in the US. from what the records i have show, it looks like (sooo frustratingly so) my great-grandfather was naturalized a mere year before my maternal grandfather was born. from what i understand, this obviously means that my grandfather automatically lost his italian citizenship, or, really, never had it.

so, what i'm trying to pursue or find out about is some sort of reinstatement loophole, or something through my maternal great-grandmother's line. i know since my great-grandmother was born way before 1948 (i think in late 1890s) and since my mother was born in 1946, this too might be hard or impossible. but i think i might have read something about residing in italy for 3 years for reinstatement, etc? i've also read on various websites that current italian immigration law takes into consideration issues such as one's desire to become an italian citizen, etc.

any thoughts or suggestions on loopholes or ideas on what to do when in italy would be much appreciated! though it may be impossible, for me, having dual citizenship would just seal the deal... it would combine these two parts of me that feel so separate right now.

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Re: wondering if there are any loopholes for dual citizenshi

Postby mler » 30 Aug 2008, 17:16

First of all, are you absolutely sure that your ggrandfather naturalized before your gfather was born? Remember that the date of naturalization is the renunciation date--not the date of the Declaration or Petition.

If you do have the correct dates, the only option for you is a three-year residency in Italy. You would apply at the end of the second year. Unfortunately, if desire to become an Italian citizen was the measure, there would be far fewer frustrated people out there.

If you are forced to go the residency route, why not visit your consulate. They will go through the procedures with you and explain your options once you are actually in Italy.

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lizm
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Re: wondering if there are any loopholes for dual citizenshi

Postby lizm » 30 Aug 2008, 17:59

thank you mler!

i'm not *entirely* sure about the dates...though i do have a naturalization certificate-like thing which says, at the top, "Petition Volume: 600, Number: 62176 and that's signed by the court, etc. i'm thinking is probably proof enough that he was indeed naturalized. that would be a renunciation, wouldn't it?

also, i thought i remember reading somewhere that the reinstatement could only take place if the relative had been italian up to the 2nd degree.... so would that mean it would not work for me, seeing as it was my g-grandfather who was the full italian? and would that make me lose my american citizenship?

i'll definitely have to check through the consulate, though i dread it! they're pretty bad down here.

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Re: wondering if there are any loopholes for dual citizenshi

Postby johnnyonthespot » 30 Aug 2008, 19:01

lizm wrote:thank you mler!

i'm not *entirely* sure about the dates...though i do have a naturalization certificate-like thing which says, at the top, "Petition Volume: 600, Number: 62176 and that's signed by the court, etc. i'm thinking is probably proof enough that he was indeed naturalized. that would be a renunciation, wouldn't it?

also, i thought i remember reading somewhere that the reinstatement could only take place if the relative had been italian up to the 2nd degree.... so would that mean it would not work for me, seeing as it was my g-grandfather who was the full italian? and would that make me lose my american citizenship?

i'll definitely have to check through the consulate, though i dread it! they're pretty bad down here.


On the back side of the actual printed Petition for Citizenship will be printed an "Oath of Allegiance" section (at least on the documents I have seen thus far...). The executed Oath of Allegiance marks the actual moment, of you will , when naturalization became official; it will be signed by the petitioner (your ancestor) and the court official, and will include the number of the issued Certificate of Naturalization.

The signing date of the Oath of Allegiance is commonly many months to (in some cases such as my maternal grandfather) several years after the signing of the Petition for Citizenship.

So, remember - the date of the Oath of Allegiance marks the date when naturalization occurred and is the date with which we are concerned.

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Re: wondering if there are any loopholes for dual citizenshi

Postby lizm » 30 Aug 2008, 19:34

one more quick question: i actually have my g-grandfather's death certificate, and the curious thing about it is that under "Citizen of what country" there is a "---". the same marking are in the box under "Social security number". could this be a sign that he wasn't naturalized?

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Re: wondering if there are any loopholes for dual citizenshi

Postby johnnyonthespot » 30 Aug 2008, 19:45

lizm wrote:one more quick question: i actually have my g-grandfather's death certificate, and the curious thing about it is that under "Citizen of what country" there is a "---". the same marking are in the box under "Social security number". could this be a sign that he wasn't naturalized?


Or that the person who assisted in the completion of the death certificate (typically a grieving spouse, child, or other loved one) simply didn't know or didn't recall.

I often advise people that the death certificate is a great place to start when you are not certain if an ancestor naturalized, but only if you keep in mind that it is not 100% guaranteed to be correct.

Unfortunately, proving a negative is the most difficult and most time-consuming thing to accomplish. Until recently, one had to file a Freedom of Information Act request with the US Citizenship and Immigration Service and then wait two or more years for a "No Records Found" letter. This letter was then presented with your application as "proof" that your ancestor did not naturalize. USCIS has recently changed the process and, the last I read, it is not even certain if they will continue to issue such letters. Either way, the place to begin is at http://www.uscis.gov/genealogy.

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Re: wondering if there are any loopholes for dual citizenshi

Postby mler » 31 Aug 2008, 00:37

Liz, sometime people petitioned the court and never completed the process, or, as Johnny points out, naturalized much later. I do think you should check further. There are many people who post here who are good at digging up information. If you don't object to posting some details, perhaps someone here can help answer your question once and for all.

You're right about the 2nd degree. I missed that.


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