New York State--documents not normally entitled to

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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imagineaa
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New York State--documents not normally entitled to

Postby imagineaa » 23 Sep 2008, 22:43

This is not a question pertaining to New York City. New York State only.

They want an original letter from the consulate explaining why I need my ancestors' vital records. The consulate's web site specifically states they will not do this.

I am going to write a letter explaining this, just wondering, have any of you had success without the requested original letter, or problems w/o it?

Thanks :?

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vj
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Re: New York State--documents not normally entitled to

Postby vj » 23 Sep 2008, 22:50

Hi and Welcome to the Forum!
While you're waiting for a response on our forum, you may want
to also check out this thread on the ICGS's Italian Dual Citizenship
Message Board
:

http://www.icgsmb.com/board/viewtopic.p ... light=york

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matta
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Re: New York State--documents not normally entitled to

Postby matta » 23 Sep 2008, 23:21

vj wrote:Hi and Welcome to the Forum!
While you're waiting for a response on our forum, you may want
to also check out this thread on the ICGS's Italian Dual Citizenship
Message Board
:

http://www.icgsmb.com/board/viewtopic.p ... light=york


It's discussed quite a bit in there. The general recommendation is to try and use the application instructions. Other than that, many people have sought court orders to have the documents released.

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imagineaa
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Re: New York State--documents not normally entitled to

Postby imagineaa » 23 Sep 2008, 23:59

Thank you for your prompt responses. I already checked on the court order; the NYS Court emailed me stating that is not the method--I must get it through Vital Records in Albany.

I suppose I will have my letter notarized and see what happens. If I've got no success, I will call my senator.

Oh, brother. This is going to take much longer than a year, isn't it?

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matta
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Re: New York State--documents not normally entitled to

Postby matta » 24 Sep 2008, 02:46

imagineaa wrote:Thank you for your prompt responses. I already checked on the court order; the NYS Court emailed me stating that is not the method--I must get it through Vital Records in Albany.

I suppose I will have my letter notarized and see what happens. If I've got no success, I will call my senator.

Oh, brother. This is going to take much longer than a year, isn't it?


If you finished within a year, that would be the fastest I ever heard. Usually the process is 2-3 years unless it's an "Easy" case (mother or father has citizenship already), in which case I usually hear 1-2 years.

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imagineaa
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Re: New York State--documents not normally entitled to

Postby imagineaa » 05 Oct 2008, 15:21

Thanks again to all the info provided. For reference to others in the same situation, here is the outcome of my attempt to get vital records of deceased ancestors from NYS DOH.

I wrote a letter referencing the NY Italian Consulate's web site stating they do not provide letters for individuals as NYS DOH requires. I enclosed my fee and asked they kindly provide the document.

I got a form letter back asking for the consulate letter. I do not believe there is any logical reason to pursue dual citizenship at this point, because I have almost zero chance of getting the documents I need.

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Re: New York State--documents not normally entitled to

Postby PeterTimber » 05 Oct 2008, 19:53

My information is that you make a request thru the CertificationUnit of the Vita records section for BMD$15.00 and marriage$5.00 and then to the Appstille office for anorther $10.00 at a different address.....Why would they give you such grief?? =peter=

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imagineaa
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Re: New York State--documents not normally entitled to

Postby imagineaa » 05 Oct 2008, 23:49

Have you done that successfully?

The state's web site says the same thing they told me by both letter and email--you must have a notarized letter on consulate letterhead explaining the reason for the request.

This only pertains to certified copies of vital records. Uncertified "geneology copies" do not require a letter, but they are not accepted by the consulate.

The only other way to obtain certified copies of vital records you're not normally entitled to (vital records belonging to other people) is to get a court order. I contacted the court to find out how to get a court order, and they said I need to go through DOH Vital Records.

Hope that helps explain.

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Re: New York State--documents not normally entitled to

Postby PeterTimber » 06 Oct 2008, 02:34

Have you contacted any NY state senator from your district yet? There has to be a reason why they want the consular letter??? =Peter=

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Re: New York State--documents not normally entitled to

Postby PeterTimber » 06 Oct 2008, 02:53

If all records of birth, marriage and death occured in NYC for my parents save for the death of my mother in NY state would there be any relaxation of the consular letter requirement? =Peter=

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Re: New York State--documents not normally entitled to

Postby johnnyonthespot » 07 Oct 2008, 18:26

PeterTimber wrote:If all records of birth, marriage and death occured in NYC for my parents save for the death of my mother in NY state would there be any relaxation of the consular letter requirement? =Peter=


The person currently in charge of New York's Vital Records bureau is taking "the letter of the law" to extremes. He is very difficult to work with and will not bend in the slightest. He interprets the law in ways that most reasonable persons would not - including at least one lawyer who reviewed the statutes at my request.

My best and only suggestion to anyone caught in this bind is to get the genealogy copies, submit them with your jure sanguinis application as reasonable proof that the records exist and support your case. At that point, the consulate may bend its own rule a little and write the letter so that certified copies may be obtained.

They may even decide to forgo the demand for certified copies ...

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Re: New York State--documents not normally entitled to

Postby PeterTimber » 07 Oct 2008, 22:59

Much obliged Johnny on the spot...can you private mail me his name and location if you will. Has the civil liberties union ever been contacted for this abuse?? Need to know the polticial reason for his actions..he does not operate in a vacuum. =Peter=

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Re: New York State--documents not normally entitled to

Postby matta » 08 Oct 2008, 05:05

PeterTimber wrote:Much obliged Johnny on the spot...can you private mail me his name and location if you will. Has the civil liberties union ever been contacted for this abuse?? Need to know the polticial reason for his actions..he does not operate in a vacuum. =Peter=


I don't know what's going on in this particular situation with this person, but I work in a government agency and this sort of thing (being taking a regulation to the extreme) is pretty common. In a government job, you basically can't be fired as long as you don't break a law. The best way to make sure that you don't break a law is to enforce it as strictly as humanly possible, even if that's beyond the level of reason. Further, there's no real reward for being efficient. Promotions generally happen on tenure.

So, there's an incentive compatibility problem there - there's no reason for a government official to loosely interpret a law, but there's a good reason for a government official to strictly interpret a law. As a result, everyone seems to interpret laws as strictly as possible.

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Re: New York State--documents not normally entitled to

Postby Roccella » 08 Oct 2008, 05:41

Did you submit supporting documentation? I am curious because I am in the same bind as you are with NYS. I received a document from them which I posted on another forum, that not only do you need a letter, but also supplementary documentation (copies of death certificates, etc). If you didn't get it from them I can try to post it here another day.

I emailed NYS DOH and asked them if I could somehow meet their requirements, could I get more than one copy of a document (for a sibling, and/or a backup) and they said no.

I think they are so overly cautious. I would try to contact the govenor of NY except I doubt they care about anything besides the economy at the moment -- AND I am not a resident of NYS.

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Re: New York State--documents not normally entitled to

Postby findtheForesi » 14 Mar 2009, 23:04

Thank You all so much for your comments and heads up here! I am lucky to have a genealogical Birth Cert. from Albany of my paternal grandmother who was born in Schenectady NY. The Vitals Dept. there has asked for the same letter as noted in this subject. And I doubt the NY Consulate is going to give any body a letter stating we *need* the document for a Dual Citizenship passport to get a certified B.C. for them.
So far I have sent copies of my B.C. along with a copy of the grandmothers B.C. and death cert. from the 1960s and my B.C. and my fathers BC. and my mother and fathers marriage cert. Highlighting the names to note direct descendent. At this point I think I am wasting my time to apply for Dual Citz. Cert.
The family search for grandparents I never met and trying to learn the language has been fun. However, after close to 4 years of collecting documents for this activity this part sounds like the most challenging.
I have not called or visited the Consulate or written for apostilles yet as I am concern I’d be wasting my money and time to go further.
I am wondering if anyone has been successful with this part of the process yet?
Any other advice or suggestions would certianly be welcome.
Thanks Again!
Rich
Searching for cugini in Italy! Vitulano, Ciazzo, Ruviano, Casertta, Corridonia Macerata.
Our Family would love to connect with cousins should they be interested. Foresi-Pannone-DiMeo-Esposito


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