Dual citizenship..have gparents original passports? HELP mee

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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LC306
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Dual citizenship..have gparents original passports? HELP mee

Postby LC306 » 01 Dec 2008, 08:16

I've done a lot of googling and read a lot of different information but I can't find anything that relates to my specific case, so I was hoping someone could help me.

My father was born in Italy and he and all his family later came to New York when my father was 17 (around 1970-1973).

Once his family got here, I believe they all became naturalized. He had an Italian passport when he was here for a while, but then never bothered to renew it.

My grandfather and grandmother were both born in 1921 and were later naturalized in the United States (I'm assuming that since my father was naturalized they were also). I have my grandmothers original social security card.

All of my great grandparents stayed and later died in Italy. I can say with 1000% certainty that they were always only Italian citizens.

Once my grandparents finally settled in Chicago, I am assuming they had dual citizenship, because I have their original Italian passports stamped by the Chicago consulate. One of their passports is green and the other is burgundy.

My grandfather's passport (the burgundy one), has a six digit number punched into the front of it, which I'm guessing is his passport number.

Not sure if it makes a difference, but my grandmother's Italian passport expired six months before I was born, but my grandfather's passport was still valid when I was born.


Since my grandfather was an Italian citizen when my father was born (and wasn't naturalized until my father was 17/18) will this make any difference??


Will I be able to gain my citizenship through my grandparents, since I have both of their Italian passports or will I need to go through my great grandparents???

Based on that, what forms will I need? Birth certificates, marriage certificates, etc, etc. I have tried emailing the Italian Consulate in Chicago so hopefully they will email me back. Will they give me any assistance in locating these documents? When I send for marriage and birth certificates in Italy, how much do I pay?


Any help is very very very appreciated! I've done some searching on here also, and did not find much that answered my question, so if I did miss a similar post, I apologize!


Oh and both of their families are from Bari (Mola)

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Re: Dual citizenship..please give me ANY help/advice

Postby elba » 01 Dec 2008, 08:26

Have you approached your nearest consulate for advice? As they are the ones who decide what you need - it may be a good place to begin.

Also, you may have seen this site, but it is useful if you are starting on the 'citizenship road'!

>Consulate General of Italy<
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Re: Dual citizenship..please give me ANY help/advice

Postby LC306 » 01 Dec 2008, 08:31

elba wrote:Have you approached your nearest consulate for advice? As they are the ones who decide what you need - it may be a good place to begin.

Also, you may have seen this site, but it is useful if you are starting on the 'citizenship road'!

>Consulate General of Italy<


As I stated, I have contacted the consulate but have not heard back. And I have looked at that link but those situations do not pertain to my own, unfortunately!

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Re: Dual citizenship..have gparents original passports? HELP

Postby johnnyonthespot » 01 Dec 2008, 10:02

LC306 wrote:I've done a lot of googling and read a lot of different information but I can't find anything that relates to my specific case, so I was hoping someone could help me.

My father was born in Italy and he and all his family later came to New York when my father was 17 (around 1970-1973).

Once his family got here, I believe they all became naturalized. He had an Italian passport when he was here for a while, but then never bothered to renew it.

My grandfather and grandmother were both born in 1921 and were later naturalized in the United States (I'm assuming that since my father was naturalized they were also). I have my grandmothers original social security card.

All of my great grandparents stayed and later died in Italy. I can say with 1000% certainty that they were always only Italian citizens.

Once my grandparents finally settled in Chicago, I am assuming they had dual citizenship, because I have their original Italian passports stamped by the Chicago consulate. One of their passports is green and the other is burgundy.

My grandfather's passport (the burgundy one), has a six digit number punched into the front of it, which I'm guessing is his passport number.

Not sure if it makes a difference, but my grandmother's Italian passport expired six months before I was born, but my grandfather's passport was still valid when I was born.


Since my grandfather was an Italian citizen when my father was born (and wasn't naturalized until my father was 17/18) will this make any difference??


Will I be able to gain my citizenship through my grandparents, since I have both of their Italian passports or will I need to go through my great grandparents???

Based on that, what forms will I need? Birth certificates, marriage certificates, etc, etc. I have tried emailing the Italian Consulate in Chicago so hopefully they will email me back. Will they give me any assistance in locating these documents? When I send for marriage and birth certificates in Italy, how much do I pay?


Any help is very very very appreciated! I've done some searching on here also, and did not find much that answered my question, so if I did miss a similar post, I apologize!


Oh and both of their families are from Bari (Mola)


The only real question of interest, in my opinion, is, "Is your father an Italian citizen or did he have the potential to be one at the time of your birth?"

You say your grandparents and Italian-born father came to the US when your father was 17/18. If so, it is unlikely that your grandparents naturalized immediately (the process would have taken at least a few years, I believe), so if your father did naturalize, he would have done so on his own, not as a minor child with his parents.

Which begs the question, is your father still living? If so, have you asked him about his own citizenship status? If your father is deceased, have you obtained a copy of the death certificate? Although not always accurate, the death certificate would indicate whether or not the deceased was an American citize, or in some cases, the country of citizenship.

You asked above, "Will I be able to gain my citizenship through my grandparents..." No, your citizenship, if any, is derived from your father and/or mother. Your parent's citizenship is derived from their parents, etc. You cannot bypass your (possibly) non-Italian father and jump back to your Italian grandparents. Not for jure sanguinis applications, anyway; although you may have options if you are willing to live in Italy for as long as three years...

Really, your first goal is to learn the citizenship status of your father at the time of your birth. Once you have that info various options can be considered.

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Re: Dual citizenship..have gparents original passports? HELP

Postby ricbru » 01 Dec 2008, 14:05

If you want to know if you are qualified/eligible to apply for italian citizenship application you need to have your father naturalization certificate (if any). You need to send the request to USCIS/ Homeland Security of Lee's Summit, MO, also to local NARA, and to local courthouse.
If your father never became US citizen, you need to get a certificate of non existence of record.
If your granparents applied and became US citizenship, there is written on their citizenship certificate if they choosen for their minor kids.
So if your dad was minor at the time of the issue of US citizenship certificates, then he became US citizen because his parents decided so, and you can not apply to become italian citizenship.
I hope it helps
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Re: Dual citizenship..have gparents original passports? HELP

Postby LC306 » 01 Dec 2008, 15:18

See, I was told by someone else that to obtan citizenship, you can go back to any Italian ancestor, as long as you can prove they were Italian citizens. SO even if my father was naturalized, as long as I can prove I had an Italian direct descendent I would be fine

My italian consulate's website says this


I was born in the US but I have an Italian direct ascendant. Am I entitled to dual citizenship?

Yes, if your ancestor remained Italian citizen. If he acquired American citizenship, making a petition at the Consulate is necessary in order to verify citizenship.

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Re: Dual citizenship..have gparents original passports? HELP

Postby johnnyonthespot » 01 Dec 2008, 17:38

LC306 wrote:See, I was told by someone else that to obtan citizenship, you can go back to any Italian ancestor, as long as you can prove they were Italian citizens. SO even if my father was naturalized, as long as I can prove I had an Italian direct descendent I would be fine

My italian consulate's website says this


I was born in the US but I have an Italian direct ascendant. Am I entitled to dual citizenship?

Yes, if your ancestor remained Italian citizen. If he acquired American citizenship, making a petition at the Consulate is necessary in order to verify citizenship.


There are two primary means by which you can acquire Italian citizenship. The first, jure sanguinis (by blood right) requires that you come from an unbroken chain of Italian citizens. If you can show that your father was still an Italian citizen at the time of your birth, then you are in fact *already* an Italian citizen by law - you merely need to prove it to your local consulate by providing the required documentation.

The second method, reserved for persons who have Italian ancestry but not an Italian-citizen parent (which would be the case if your father naturalized prior to your birth), requires that you establish residency in Italy for a minimum of three years and apply for naturalization at the end of the second year.

There are many quirks in these laws however. You would do well to provide the group here with more details - exactly when (year) did your father naturalize, for example? Is there any Italian blood on your mother's side? Where do you reside/which consulate serves your place of residency? Some consulates are much stricter than others in their interpretation of the rules...

I was born in the US but I have an Italian direct ascendant. Am I entitled to dual citizenship?


In this context, a "direct ascendant" refers to your father or mother and means that he/she was an Italian citizen at the time of your birth.

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Re: Dual citizenship..have gparents original passports? HELP

Postby LC306 » 02 Dec 2008, 01:04

I guess I am just confused, because I do have my grandparents last Italian passports (before they died). They came to the US at the same time as my father, and were US citizens (I have my gmas ss card) but they still had valid italian passports?

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Re: Dual citizenship..have gparents original passports? HELP

Postby johnnyonthespot » 02 Dec 2008, 01:41

LC306 wrote:I guess I am just confused, because I do have my grandparents last Italian passports (before they died). They came to the US at the same time as my father, and were US citizens (I have my gmas ss card) but they still had valid italian passports?


This is not the issue.

Your grandparents *were* Italian - of that there seems no doubt. Your father was also Italian - he was born in Italy to Italian parents. No issue there, either.

The question which matters is, was your father *still* Italian at the time of your birth. You haven't clearly answered that one yet. Is your father still living? Do you know - with certainty - if and exactly when he naturalized?

LC306 wrote:...They came to the US at the same time as my father, and were US citizens (I have my gmas ss card) but they still had valid italian passports?


The social security card is meaningless in this context - one does not need to be an American citizen in order to obtain a social security card.

I don't want to be overly insistant, but you will get nowhere in this quest until you determine with certainty and with accuracy if and when your father naturalized. At this time, it is the *only* fact which should concern you.

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Re: Dual citizenship..have gparents original passports? HELP

Postby LC306 » 02 Dec 2008, 03:52

My father is out of the country at the moment and I won't be able to get in touch with him for several weeks, but I looked up his name on ancestry.com and something came up with naturalization records but I no longer have a paid account so it won't let me view it.

Would anyone be willing to help me out?? Thankssss! :)

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Re: Dual citizenship..have gparents original passports? HELP

Postby wldspirit » 02 Dec 2008, 14:10

You can post your info here in the forum, a number of our members have access to ancestry as well as footnote, or if you feel more comfortable,
given the fact that your father is still living, you can send me a PM and I can look up the info for you.
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Re: Dual citizenship..have gparents original passports? HELP

Postby LC306 » 03 Dec 2008, 00:00

So just to clarify, before I do anything, I need to find out when my father was naturalized. If he was naturalized before I was born, I am not eligible, but if it was after my birth, I am eligible.

And if he was naturalized before I was born, then there is no chance I can get IT citizenship (despite the fact that my grandparents and ggrandparents were Italian citizens) unless I live there for three years

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Re: Dual citizenship..have gparents original passports? HELP

Postby matta » 03 Dec 2008, 02:10

LC306 wrote:So just to clarify, before I do anything, I need to find out when my father was naturalized.


Yes

LC306 wrote:If he was naturalized before I was born, I am not eligible,


Correct. You would not be an Italian citizen jure sanguinis and would need to naturalize.

LC306 wrote:but if it was after my birth, I am eligible.


Yes. You would be an Italian citizen jure sanguinis.

LC306 wrote:And if he was naturalized before I was born, then there is no chance I can get IT citizenship (despite the fact that my grandparents and ggrandparents were Italian citizens) unless I live there for three years


Basically, yes. Theoretically, you could get a job working for the Italian government in a consulate. That counts towards residency, so after 3 years you could naturalize. Or you could marry an Italian citizen and apply to naturalize after 3 years. Or you could hope that laws change to make dual citizenship laws from 1992 retroactive (a very long shot). But realistically, you need to move to Italy and live there legally for 3 years.

It doesn't matter what citizenship your grandparents, or great grand parents have. Only your parents can pass citizenship to you at birth, so all that matters is their citizenship at the time of your birth. People who mention grandparents and great grandparents are proving a line of citizenship (proving a grandparents' citizenship in part to prove a parent's citizenship in order to prove their citizenship - the grandparent's Italian citizenship is a necessary but not sufficient condition in that case).

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Re: Dual citizenship..have gparents original passports? HELP

Postby wldspirit » 03 Dec 2008, 05:17

I did get your PM, however I am unable to open the message. It it showing up as a link, could you resend it, and change the subject line to
read "Ancestry" instead of Ancestry.com. :wink:
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