Proof of Citizenship

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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SFC66
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Proof of Citizenship

Postby SFC66 » 25 Apr 2009, 00:32

It

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teddi
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Re: Proof of Citizenship

Postby teddi » 25 Apr 2009, 06:02

I would request your GGF's naturalization certificate from USCIS. It should list GF's name if he was included in the naturalization.

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Re: Proof of Citizenship

Postby SFC66 » 25 Apr 2009, 10:09

I do have my GGF Petition for Citizenship, and my GF is listed on it as one of his children (residing in Italy).

So your saying derivative citizenship would have been conferred to the minor child by simply listing the childs name on the Petition back then. And also the father's Petition could be used as 'proof' of citizenship by the child.

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Re: Proof of Citizenship

Postby teddi » 25 Apr 2009, 15:48

I think it needs to be written on the actual naturalization certificate. The petition always lists the children and spouse, even when they are not naturalized along with the father.

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Re: Proof of Citizenship

Postby SFC66 » 26 Apr 2009, 01:37

Makes sense concerning being on the naturalization certificate vs the petition. However this touches on a question I asked in an earlier post.

From what I understand minor children residing overseas automatically derived citizenship from the naturalizing father as long as they came to the U.S. before a certain age to set up permanent residency like my grandfather (USCIS, nor the county in which he lived has any record of his naturalization).

Based on your answer my question then would be would derivative citizenship be conferred to the minor child only if listed on the father's naturalization certificate? And if not, I'm back to my original question (what a mess this stuff is!)

Thanks again Teddi.

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Re: Proof of Citizenship

Postby teddi » 26 Apr 2009, 05:15

I agree that the minor child back in Italy may have technically naturalized with the father. However, mler cited a case where a child presumed she had been naturalized by derivation, but the US govt stated she did not have citizenship as it wasn't on the certificate. I think she had to naturalize again as an adult.

If you are applying through GF (who was born in Italy), the consulate doesn't need any documents from GGF. I would request GF's naturalization certificate from USCIS. If GF has no certificate on file request the USCIS no-record letter.

If USCIS says GF wasn't a citizen, that's good enough for the consulate (though they may also require NARA no-record letter and county court no-record letter).

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Re: Proof of Citizenship

Postby SFC66 » 26 Apr 2009, 10:26

So in an attempt to determine naturalization will USCIS also look for derivative citizenship based on a father's naturalization certificate as well as an individual's attempt to naturalize?

Is it safe to say then that regardless of what actually might have happened as long as there are no records anywhere the consulate (New York in my case) will be satisfied? Do they do any kind of verification? My concern would be that Italian citizenship would be granted only to be reversed upon further investigation.

Thanks.

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Re: Proof of Citizenship

Postby teddi » 26 Apr 2009, 16:44

So in an attempt to determine naturalization will USCIS also look for derivative citizenship based on a father's naturalization certificate as well as an individual's attempt to naturalize?

No, USCIS will not check GGF's file if you ask for a search of GF's file.

If NY consulate requires death certificates (Miami doesn't, I hear) they may well question why GF's survivors told the person completing his death certificate he was American. It would be their word vs USCIS, NARA, & the county court. I don't know how NY consulate would judge that.

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Re: Proof of Citizenship

Postby SFC66 » 27 Apr 2009, 01:59

So If my GF did receive derivative citizenship I'm assuming there should be no records of his naturalization. He would only be listed on my GGF's certificate of naturalization. So I would need to get a copy my GGF certificate of naturalization to confirm GF citizenship. Is this right?

If GF did receive derivative citizenship - and back to my original question - what would he have gotten just off the boat and as a minor to 'prove' citizenship. Just a passport or something else?

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Re: Proof of Citizenship

Postby teddi » 27 Apr 2009, 06:13

It's conceivable that GF could have requested a naturalization certificate. You can request GF's C-file from USCIS.

You could search for his ship passenger list and passenger manifest index card- they may show his citizenship.

If his citizenship was not provable when he landed, he may have an A-file (alien). You can request this from USCIS.

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Re: Proof of Citizenship

Postby SFC66 » 28 Apr 2009, 01:23

I do have a copy of the ship manifest and he had an immigrant visa number but was not a U.S. citizen. The ship manifest shows U.S. citizen stamped next to the names of those who were citizens.

But where I have been going with this is just maybe if somebody along the way forgot to do or get something they were supposed to - like the woman you mentioned in your earlier post - there might be a chance he failed to attain citizenship.

Again I appreciate all your help.

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Re: Proof of Citizenship

Postby teddi » 28 Apr 2009, 05:59

I do have a copy of the ship manifest and he had an immigrant visa number but was not a U.S. citizen.

Given that ship manifest, I don't think you're dead in the water at all. If he had an immigrant visa, he was not a US citizen according to the US govt. Do the USCIS search for the A file and the C file at USCIS genealogy. If they don't show him naturalizing, search NARA and the county clerk, then apply at the consulate. The consulate does not ask for GGF's documents when you apply through GF. The death certificate proves nothing (usually a bereaved relative answering questions to a person completing the death certificate- prone to errors).

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Re: Proof of Citizenship

Postby mler » 28 Apr 2009, 18:33

I don't believe the child's name is listed on the naturalization certificate, only on the petition so actually the naturalized child had no real proof that he was American. This may be helpful in your case. It was not uncommon for young men to come to this country independently when they were still teenagers. My own grandfather came to this country alone when he was 16 years old. My case was easier to prove, however, because he did naturalize on his own behalf.

It seems the letter of no record should work for you, but NY does require Death Certificates. If your grandfather is listed as a U.S. citizen on the Death Certificate or on any other document, I'm not certain that the consulate will ignore it. They look much more closely at records of ancestors who did not naturalize than those of ancestors with proof of naturalization, and NY has become much more picky of late. That, I think, is your biggest obstacle.

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Re: Proof of Citizenship

Postby teddi » 28 Apr 2009, 21:23

Are you certain mler? I've read that the names of children (and spouse) naturalized with the father (husband) were included on the certificate.

Every applicant (with children) lists their names on the petition (regardless of their age, birthplace etc). The spouse is also always listed on the petition, even if she is not naturalized.

I see mention of spouse's names on their husband's certificates here (nothing about children though):
For example, after implementation of the Cable Act in 1922, naturalization certificates continued to call for the name of the new citizen's spouse until at least 1929. This was a remnant of the days when women derived nationality from their husbands, and the name inserted on the certificate after 1922 was usually that of the wife.

NARA Prologue

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Re: Proof of Citizenship

Postby mler » 28 Apr 2009, 23:52

Hi teddi,

I can't be sure about this, but I believe I'm correct. I know my husband's certificate has no place for a listing of children and spouse (not that he had any at the time :) ). My grandfather naturalized before my grandmother, and her name is not on the certificate either. Her name, and those of their children, however, do appear on the petition.

This was the problem my friend had. Both her parents naturalized when she was a minor; she was born in Italy. She, of course, correctly assumed that she was naturalized as well. Her name was not on her father's certificate; it was on the petition. She still would have had no problem, but she could not find proof that her mother ever naturalized; and since this was in the mid-70's both parents of a minor would have had to naturalize for derivative citizenship to prevail.

As far as I know, derivative citizenship is implied when a minor child born in a foreign country is listed on the petition of a naturalizing parent; but he/she is not specifically listed on any certificate. I recall that someone on another board recently posted that his father received derivative citizenship in the early 1920s but had no certificate to document this. He finally applied for and received a certificate in the 1940s, but the date on his papers reverted to the date his father naturalized.

It certainly seems an inefficient way of dealing with an important issue, but based on the naturalization certificates I have, my friend's experience, and the post to which I refer, I think that was pretty much standard.

It would be great to have the input of someone whose ancestor received derivative citizenship and who is in possession of a certificate.


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