Researching geneology and q about dual citizen + documents

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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alecdmurray
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Researching geneology and q about dual citizen + documents

Postby alecdmurray » 30 Sep 2009, 02:38

Hello, My name is Alec Murray and I am researching my family history and have come upon the opportunity of obtaining my Italian citizenship through decent (I think).

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Re: Researching geneology and q about dual citizen + documen

Postby alecdmurray » 01 Oct 2009, 00:33

In continuing my research...

I have seen a rule regarding a mother not passing citizenship to her child- something coinciding with the year 1948, does this apply to the year of birth of the mother or child? My father was born in 1958 but his mother(through which the bloodline runs) was born in 1928.

Also, to add some info to the above stated situation, none of the family became naturalized citizens of the adopted country (Brazil or the US) and rather citizenship was obtained through birth in both Brazil and the US.

Thanks again for any assistance.

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Re: Researching geneology and q about dual citizen + documen

Postby jwazevedo » 01 Oct 2009, 03:37

Welcome to the forum, Alec. The 1948 rule applies to when the child was born, not the mother. So your grandmother born in 1928 could pass along Italian citizenship after 1948, and since your father was born after then, there shouldn't be a problem.

Most people send a letter to the comune where the Italian ancestor was born and ask for the birth certificate and other specific documents. You'll find examples of letters elsewhere in this forum and at http://www.angelfire.com/ok3/pearlsofwi ... tters.html.

Our Italian members might have more specific information about dealing with Torino.

Good luck!
Jerry

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Re: Researching geneology and q about dual citizen + documen

Postby alecdmurray » 01 Oct 2009, 14:39

Thank you very much Jerry. That's some good news as I was worried that I may not be eligible do to this 1948 rule.

For others that have had experience with multiple countries, do I need to legalize my Brazilian documents at the Italian consulate in Brazil?

And this apostille is required for each document or can I obtain one for all of my documents (and how can I get it?)?

Also, I have the original documents (birth, marriage, death), do I need to get cert copies of these documents?

On a final point, does anybody have expirence with the LA Italian consulate? Should I be worried that they are difficult to work with etc, or are they pretty easy to please?

Thank you for any help! It is much appreciated. (and thanks again Jerry)

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Re: Researching geneology and q about dual citizen + documen

Postby alecdmurray » 17 May 2010, 19:09

I have been working on this on and off for quite a while now and I have now new certified copies of all of my vital records from both the US and Brazil but I have had serious trouble tracking down my documents from Italy.

I am seeking birth certificates and a marriage certificate from Torino and have written the municipality with the following response:

Pregiatissimo Signore, in merito alla sua richiesta la comunichiamo che BENEDETTO FRANCESCO di Ivan e della BENEDETTO Margherita NON RISULTA ESSERE NATO in Torino nel 1864. Per quanto riguarda COLOMBERO MARIA TERESA (Torino 1862), purtroppo non siamo in grado di effuttuare la ricera in quanto non disponiamo delgi Elenchi dei Nati Femmine ma solo dei maschi; abbiamo tuttavia consultato se tra i nati maschi tra il 1860 e il 1866 figurasse un nominativo COLOMBERO, ma con esito negativo.
Cordiali saluti,
l'Archivo Arcivescovile di Torino.

Also enclosed was this note:

Faremo la ricerca dopo aver visto i documenti della curia, perche i dati sono troppo vaghi. -Comune di Torino


So, what is my next step in researching these documents if the comune is unable to help me? Churches? Adjacent cities? Im lost.

Thank you for any help and suggestions.

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Re: Researching geneology and q about dual citizen + documen

Postby johnnyonthespot » 17 May 2010, 19:38

They seem to be saying that they were unable to locate any records for either person.

Due to the time frame, it may be necessary to seek records from church parishes. A more likely possibility is that your ancestors were not from the city/comune di Torino, but rather from the Provincia di Torino, an area which includes more than 20 comuni. You will need to research this further, possibly going to the extreme of writing each individual comune to see which, if any, has the records you seek. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Province_of_Turin

On another note: I don't recall seeing this thread back in October. If I had, I would have pointed out another problem which I don't see mentioned above. You will have to prove that none of your ancestors relinquished his/her Italian citizenship prior to the birth of the next person in your lineage. In other words,

a) Your great-great-grandfather must have been an Italian citizen at the time of your great-grandfather's birth

b) Your great-grandfather must have been an Italian citizen (by inheritance) at the time of your grandmother's birth

c) Your grandmother must have been an Italian citizen (by inheritance) at the time of your father's birth

d) Your father must have been an Italian citizen (by inheritance) at the time of your birth

Because of the number of countries and generations involved, proving all of this is going to be no small feat.
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Re: Researching geneology and q about dual citizen + documen

Postby alecdmurray » 17 May 2010, 19:46

johnnyonthespot wrote: <snip> You will have to prove that none of your ancestors relinquished his/her Italian citizenship prior to the birth of the next person in your lineage. In other words,

a) Your great-great-grandfather must have been an Italian citizen at the time of your great-grandfather's birth

b) Your great-grandfather must have been an Italian citizen (by inheritance) at the time of your grandmother's birth

c) Your grandmother must have been an Italian citizen (by inheritance) at the time of your father's birth

d) Your father must have been an Italian citizen (by inheritance) at the time of your birth

Because of the number of countries and generations involved, proving all of this is going to be no small feat.


Thank you for the note here. I have documents of Brazilian non-naturalization for my Italian ancestors who immigrated to Brazil as well as their Brazilian death certificates listing them as Italian citizens rather than Brazilians. My great grandfather obtained Brazilian citizenship though birth and I cannot see how he would have given up his Italian citizenship as he was not a naturalized citizen. My grandmother became an American citizen by birth while my great-grandparents were living in NY (they never naturalized and returned to Brazil shortly after). My father was born as an American by birthright to American parents and Brazilian because he was born in Brazil. Nobody through the ancestry line ever naturalized in any country, could there be any other issue here that I should be worried about? Thanks again.

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Re: Researching geneology and q about dual citizen + documen

Postby johnnyonthespot » 17 May 2010, 19:56

alecdmurray wrote:Thank you for the note here. I have documents of Brazilian non-naturalization for my Italian ancestors who immigrated to Brazil as well as their Brazilian death certificates listing them as Italian citizens rather than Brazilians. My great grandfather obtained Brazilian citizenship though birth and I cannot see how he would have given up his Italian citizenship as he was not a naturalized citizen. My grandmother became an American citizen by birth while my great-grandparents were living in NY (they never naturalized and returned to Brazil shortly after). My father was born as an American by birthright to American parents and Brazilian because he was born in Brazil. Nobody through the ancestry line ever naturalized in any country, could there be any other issue here that I should be worried about? Thanks again.


It does seem that you have all the bases covered. Congratulations on a job well done. :)
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Re: Researching geneology and q about dual citizen + documen

Postby johnnyonthespot » 18 May 2010, 10:21

I misspoke earlier - there are actually over 300 comuni in the province of Torino/Turin. To wit:

Agliè
Airasca
Ala di Stura
Albiano d'Ivrea
Alice Superiore
Almese
Alpette
Alpignano
Andezeno
Andrate
Angrogna
Arignano
Avigliana
Azeglio
Bairo
Balangero
Baldissero Canavese
Baldissero Torinese
Balme
Banchette
Barbania
Bardonecchia
Barone Canavese
Beinasco
Bibiana
Bobbio Pellice
Bollengo
Borgaro Torinese
Borgiallo
Borgofranco d'Ivrea
Borgomasino
Borgone Susa
Bosconero
Brandizzo
Bricherasio
Brosso
Brozolo
Bruino
Brusasco
Bruzolo
Buriasco
Burolo
Busano
Bussoleno
Buttigliera Alta
Cafasse
Caluso
Cambiano
Campiglione Fenile
Cantalupa
Cantoira
Caprie
Caravino
Carema
Carignano
Carmagnola
Casalborgone
Cascinette d'Ivrea
Caselette
Caselle Torinese
Castagneto Po
Castagnole Piemonte
Castellamonte
Castelnuovo Nigra
Castiglione Torinese
Cavagnolo
Cavour
Cercenasco
Ceres
Ceresole Reale
Cesana Torinese
Chialamberto
Chianocco
Chiaverano
Chieri
Chiesanuova
Chiomonte
Chiusa di San Michele
Chivasso
Ciconio
Cintano
Cinzano
Ciriè
Claviere
Coassolo Torinese
Coazze
Collegno
Colleretto Castelnuovo
Colleretto Giacosa
Condove
Corio
Cossano Canavese
Cuceglio
Cumiana
Cuorgneè
Druento
Exilles
Favria
Feletto
Fenestrelle
Fiano
Fiorano Canavese
Foglizzo
Forno Canavese
Frassinetto
Front
Frossasco
Garzigliana
Gassino Torinese
Germagnano
Giaglione
Giaveno
Givoletto
Gravere
Groscavallo
Grosso
Grugliasco
Ingria
Inverso Pinasca
Isolabella
Issiglio
Ivrea
La Cassa
La Loggia
Lanzo Torinese
Lauriano
Leinì
Lemie
Lessolo
Levone
Locana
Lombardore
Lombriasco
Loranzè
Lugnacco
Luserna San Giovanni
Lusernetta
Lusigliè
Macello
Maglione
Marentino
Massello
Mathi
Mattie
Mazzè
Meana di Susa
Mercenasco
Meugliano
Mezzenile
Mombello di Torino
Mompantero
Monastero di Lanzo
Moncalieri
Moncenisio
Montaldo Torinese
Montalenghe
Montalto Dora
Montanaro
Monteu Da Po
Moriondo Torinese
Nichelino
Noasca
Nole
Nomaglio
None
Novalesa
Oglianico
Orbassano
Orio Canavese
Osasco
Osasio
Oulx
Ozegna
Palazzo Canavese
Pancalieri
Parella
Pavarolo
Pavone Canavese
Pecco
Pecetto Torinese
Perosa Argentina
Perosa Canavese
Perrero
Pertusio
Pessinetto
Pianezza
Pinasca
Pinerolo
Pino Torinese
Piobesi Torinese
Piossasco
Piscina
Piverone
Poirino
Pomaretto
Pont Canavese
Porte
Pragelato
Prali
Pralormo
Pramollo
Prarostino
Prascorsano
Pratiglione
Quagliuzzo
Quassolo
Quincinetto
Reano
Ribordone
Riva Presso Chieri
Rivalba
Rivalta di Torino
Rivara
Rivarolo Canavese
Rivarossa
Rivoli
Robassomero
Rocca Canavese
Roletto
Romano Canavese
Ronco Canavese
Rondissone
Rorà
Rosta
Roure
Rubiana
Rueglio
Salassa
Salbertrand
Salerano Canavese
Salza di Pinerolo
Samone
San Benigno Canavese
San Carlo Canavese
San Colombano Belmonte
San Didero
San Francesco Al Campo
San Germano Chisone
San Gillio
San Giorgio Canavese
San Giorio di Susa
San Giusto Canavese
San Martino Canavese
San Maurizio Canavese
San Mauro Torinese
San Pietro Val Lemina
San Ponso
San Raffaele Cimena
San Sebastiano Da Po
San Secondo di Pinerolo
Sangano
Sant'Ambrogio di Torino
Sant'Antonino di Susa
Santena
Sauze di Cesana
Sauze d'Oulx
Scalenghe
Scarmagno
Sciolze
Sestriere
Settimo Rottaro
Settimo Torinese
Settimo Vittone
Sparone
Strambinello
Strambino
Susa
Tavagnasco
Torino
Torrazza Piemonte
Torre Canavese
Torre Pellice
Trana
Trausella
Traversella
Traves
Trofarello
Usseaux
Usseglio
Vaie
Val della Torre
Valgioie
Vallo Torinese
Valperga
Valprato Soana
Varisella
Vauda Canavese
Venaria Reale
Venaus
Verolengo
Verrua Savoia
Vestignè
Vialfrè
Vico Canavese
Vidracco
Vigone
Villafranca Piemonte
Villanova Canavese
Villar Dora
Villar Focchiardo
Villar Pellice
Villar Perosa
Villarbasse
Villareggia
Villastellone
Vinovo
Virle Piemonte
Vische
Vistrorio
Viù
Volpiano
Volvera
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Re: Researching geneology and q about dual citizen + documen

Postby alecdmurray » 18 May 2010, 16:06

Well, with a list like that it looks like I may need to spend several hundred dollars at the post office writing them individually. I had found a similar list yesterday that at least includes addresses for each of the comuni (http://www.comuni-italiani.it/001/index.html); for anybody else who looks at this in a similar situation.

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Re: Researching geneology and q about dual citizen + documen

Postby alecdmurray » 15 Jun 2010, 17:51

I sent a little over 300 envelopes a couple weeks ago, and I am starting to receive responses. Many have been as non result, but a few say that their records only start after 1866 (just 3 years after the birth or my ancestor.) I am praying that within the next month I receive a positive result and dont need to worry about it, but what would be the best way to start researching church documents within the province of Torino? As I said before, I had always thought that my family was from the city of, but now Im not so sure.

Thanks again for all of the help that this forum provides!

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Re: Researching geneology and q about dual citizen + documen

Postby johnnyonthespot » 15 Jun 2010, 18:12

alecdmurray wrote:I sent a little over 300 envelopes a couple weeks ago...


Porca vacca! (Holy cow!)
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Re: Researching geneology and q about dual citizen + documen

Postby alecdmurray » 15 Jun 2010, 23:48

I also have been trying to figure out what to do with my Brazilian documents to have them ready once I have obtained those from Italy for which I am still searching.

The consulate here in LA has told me that I will need to have the documents and their translations authenticated by the Italian consulate that covers the jurisdiction in which the documents were issued. Because I have documents from both Rio de Janeiro and from Sao Paulo, that means I now need to deal with two more consulates on this. I have called both consulates and they both tell me that they will not do business by mail and will not accept anything that I attempt to mail to them; that is, I (or a family member, they say) must physically make an appointment with each consulate and hand deliver these for authentication. Obviously, this is not feasible for me to do and the only family that I know in Brazil are the cousins of my grandmother (I think too large a favor to ask of elderly relatives whom Ive only met once). Im sure that there are others on this forum that have needed to deal with this issue, Americans and Brazilians alike, as many Italians immigrated to Brazil.

Does anybody know if there exists some sort of consular service companies in Brazil that would act as my agent at the consulates, getting my documents authenticated and mailing them back to me?

Thanks again for the help of the forum!

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Re: Researching geneology and q about dual citizen + documen

Postby priere » 16 Jun 2010, 17:23

alecdmurray wrote:The consulate here in LA has told me that I will need to have the documents and their translations authenticated by the Italian consulate that covers the jurisdiction in which the documents were issued.


I think I may know what they're referring to, but you'll want to double check with your consulate:

My consulate is Boston but the majority of my documents are from CT so after applying at the Boston consulate, he is going to send my documents to the New York consulate (who have jurisdiction over CT) to have them authenticated.

So, I think the consulate you apply at will send your documents on to the Brazil consulate to authenticate after they take your docs.

I don't think this is anything you have to do, it's the consulates that do this work.


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