how to PROVE someone DIDNT renounce italian citizenship?

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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popogirl79
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how to PROVE someone DIDNT renounce italian citizenship?

Postby popogirl79 » 30 Nov 2009, 04:35

hi there
i am interested in obtaining dual italian citizenship but am hitting a wall...
i have been searching high and low for the answer to this question with no luck.
my great grandfather was born in italy in 1899, married an italian woman i'm not sure when, came to the US around 1915, had my grandfather in 1921, and became naturalized in 1939-ish. i know one of the biggest obstacles is whether or not anyone in your family ever renounced their italian citizenship. since my great grandfather became a US citizen AFTER my grandfather was born, is a bonus for me to obtain dual italian citizenship. but it also means he automatically renounced his italian citizenship. ALSO- this means that my father and grandfather automatically retained their italian citizenship. another bonus. BUT HOW DO YOU PROVE THAT THEY DID NOT RENOUNCE???? is there a form of some sort? some kind of PROOF? or do they take your word for it? someone also said that because my father and grandfather both served in the US military, this MIGHT mean that may have given up any italian citizenship they may have had.
PLEASE HELP!! lol
i would appreciate an answer ASAP before i go thru all the trouble obtaining the million and one documents i need to get a hold of in order to apply. and also because i want to go to grad school in the UK, and if i obtain italian citizenship, i will also be considered an EU citizen, which will make living/studying/working in the UK a whole lot easier.
thanks everyone!!!!!!!

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Re: how to PROVE someone DIDNT renounce italian citizenship?

Postby ricbru » 30 Nov 2009, 07:04

Hello,
I know that, in the list of documents you need to have, there is not a document that proofs your grandfather and father never renounced to italian citizenship.
And if they did it, they would have done it in front of the counselor.
I think this is not a problem, you just need to know from your italian consulate the right list of document to have, and after that, there is not problem.
In my experience I never heard anyone proving by a document , of an ancestor renouncing the italian citizenship, because at that time no one were ever thought to do that.
So from my point of view you can start your documents (after you get the complete list from your consulate) and after that, you can book an appointment to apply.
Do not worry, If at time of application, there is/are document/s missing, your application will be put in a "stand by" status, and they will send everything to italy when you provide them the missing document.
Good luck for everything
bye Riccardo

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johnnyonthespot
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Re: how to PROVE someone DIDNT renounce italian citizenship?

Postby johnnyonthespot » 30 Nov 2009, 12:13

For a deceased ancestor, you complete a "Form 4" on their behalf, testifying that to the best of your knowledge your ancestor never renounced his citizenship.

For a living ancestor, he/she completes Form 3 instead.

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Re: how to PROVE someone DIDNT renounce italian citizenship?

Postby ricbru » 30 Nov 2009, 12:15

Thank you jhonny
Riccardo

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Re: how to PROVE someone DIDNT renounce italian citizenship?

Postby johnnyonthespot » 30 Nov 2009, 12:45

ricbru wrote:Thank you jhonny
Riccardo


You are welcome, Riccardo.

And, to be honest, it is really Carmine, not johnny. :)

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Re: how to PROVE someone DIDNT renounce italian citizenship?

Postby ricbru » 30 Nov 2009, 13:27

ok carmine, thanks
bye Riccardo

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Re: how to PROVE someone DIDNT renounce italian citizenship?

Postby PeterTimber » 30 Nov 2009, 15:54

Carmine is derived from the jewish expression for Gods Orchard. =Peter=
~Peter~

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Re: how to PROVE someone DIDNT renounce italian citizenship?

Postby johnnyonthespot » 30 Nov 2009, 16:06

PeterTimber wrote:Carmine is derived from the jewish expression for Gods Orchard. =Peter=


It is also the name of a red pigment: http://www.webexhibits.org/pigments/indiv/overview/carmine.html. Seeing my name on the ubiquitous red pencil back in elementary school days was just one of many reasons why I disliked it for so much of my life.

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Re: how to PROVE someone DIDNT renounce italian citizenship?

Postby PeterTimber » 30 Nov 2009, 16:10

I was referring to the origin of the name but I can understand where your coming from Carmine (how do you pronounce it.. KAR-MINNA or CAR-MINE? =Peter=
~Peter~

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Re: how to PROVE someone DIDNT renounce italian citizenship?

Postby popogirl79 » 30 Nov 2009, 16:12

I want to thank riccardo for his response. it was very helpful. but with all due respect, would we be able to move the discussion of "carmine's" name to another board? i would like to leave this particular message board open for the topic of italian citizenship in regards to my question.
thanks!

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Re: how to PROVE someone DIDNT renounce italian citizenship?

Postby johnnyonthespot » 30 Nov 2009, 16:41

popogirl79 wrote:I want to thank riccardo for his response. it was very helpful. but with all due respect, would we be able to move the discussion of "carmine's" name to another board? i would like to leave this particular message board open for the topic of italian citizenship in regards to my question.
thanks!


Popo, you are corrrect to chastise us but by way of explanation, please understand that Peter, Riccardo, and I (under my current username and also a former one) have been posting here for years and therefore have somewhat of a "friends" relationship. As such, we can sometimes go off on tangents.

At least we are still speaking of things Italian. Who knows, perhaps you will find a "Carmine" in your family tree and you will thus have a better understanding of his name. :)

Peter, I pronounce it the American way, Car-mine. However the correct Italian pronunciation is something like Car-ME-nay.

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Re: how to PROVE someone DIDNT renounce italian citizenship?

Postby johnnyonthespot » 30 Nov 2009, 16:49

popogirl79 wrote:... i know one of the biggest obstacles is whether or not anyone in your family ever renounced their italian citizenship.


No, this is not quite correct.

The biggest obstacle is the possibility that your original Italian ancestor naturalized as a citizen of another country such as the US which required the renunciation of any other citizenship and that he/she did so prior to the birth of your next-in-line ancestor. You already have this possibility covered in your statement that, "my great grandfather was born in italy in 1899, married an italian woman i'm not sure when, came to the US around 1915, had my grandfather in 1921, and became naturalized in 1939-ish."

Now, in theory, your grandfather or father could have for some odd reason formally renounced their Italian citizenship thereby breaking the chain, but this is considered so unlikely that the consulate allows you to simply certify (using Form 4, see my earlier post) that to the best of your knowledge it did not happen. Besides, if it did happen, the Italian government (including your ancestral comune and the local consulate) would have a record of the event.

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Re: how to PROVE someone DIDNT renounce italian citizenship?

Postby popogirl79 » 30 Nov 2009, 16:50

i understand that. message board friends are fun!! but i've signed up to get the replies sent to my email box because i am very eager to find an answer, and it is frustrating to be getting reply after reply with answers that have nothing to do with my question. i hope that you understand that. =]

thanks again for all the helpful responses! =]

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popogirl79
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Re: how to PROVE someone DIDNT renounce italian citizenship?

Postby popogirl79 » 30 Nov 2009, 16:52

thanks johnny on the spot!!
so the fact that my great grandfather became naturalized AFTER my grandfather was born is GOOD?
and also...is it true that since my father and grandfather were in the US military..does this mean they renounced any italian citizenshp they may have had?

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Re: how to PROVE someone DIDNT renounce italian citizenship?

Postby johnnyonthespot » 30 Nov 2009, 17:01

popogirl79 wrote:thanks johnny on the spot!!
so the fact that my great grandfather became naturalized AFTER my grandfather was born is GOOD?


It is better than good; it is perfect. Had your great-grandfather never naturalized, you would have to prove this fact and it is much, much, more difficult to prove non-naturalization than to obtain the documents which prove that he did naturalize after the birth of your grandfather.


and also...is it true that since my father and grandfather were in the US military..does this mean they renounced any italian citizenshp they may have had?


No, not true. Your grandfather and father were both born American citizens of Italain blood. As such, there was nothing for them to renounce.


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