Have all docs but consulate is confused and says 'more

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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PCM212
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Have all docs but consulate is confused and says 'more

Postby PCM212 » 08 Dec 2009, 19:37

Hi all,

I am in a bit of a confusing situation.

Overview

I am trying to obtain Italian citizenship through my late grandfather, who immigrated in 1907 at the age of 7 with his mother and brother. His father (my great grandfather), was already in the US, paid their fare, and they met him in Pennsylvania. At some point after entering the country, he began using an anglicization of his name ('Peter' for 'Pietro'). This action, along with some discrepancies with certain documents, is leading to some issues with the consulate, and I'm hoping maybe you all can provide some insight.

No Naturalization Records

Certification of Non-existence from USCIS
There is no record of my grandfather having naturalized (they searched for the Italian name and anglicized name). Apparently USCIS keeps a centralized database of records of naturalization from 1906 on to present day. My grandfather immigrated in 1907 so if he did naturalize, it's my understanding that his record would be housed at USCIS.

Certificate from NARA
I received a certified letter from the National Archives stating no naturalization record for my grandfather was found (they searched for the Italian name and anglicized name).

Certificate from local courts
I received a Pennsylvania court certified letter stating no record for my grandfather was found (they searched for the Italian name and anglicized name).

Issues with Documents

The Anglicization of his name
All of his U.S. documents have his name as 'Peter' rather than 'Pietro'. How can I prove this is the same person even though the address and birth dates are the same? Would he have had to file a name change at some point or did people just use anglicized names without a legal change?

Death certificate says US citizen
His death certificate says 'U.S.A.' in the 'Citizen of What Country' field. The consulate says this is ok, as this field was often not correct (especially if someone had been living in the States for a while) but it did raise a red flag.

Ship Manifest information is a bit contradictory
The ship manifest contains some contradictory information that's left me scratching my head. Most importantly, the 'Nationality' field clearly says 'Italy'. The 'Whether ever before in United States' field clearly says 'No'. But the 'Last Permanent Residence' field says 'Colle Sannita' [Italy] for 'City or Town', but 'U.S.' for 'Country'. This makes no sense to me? I assume that maybe the immigration officer put 'U.S.' because my grandfather was planning to live in the US, as he was clearly going to live with his father?

Naturalization through his father
I have been unable to locate any naturalization records for my great-grandfather (his father), but I have not gone through the USCIS process (only NARA and local courts). If my great-grandfather did in fact naturalize, and my grandfather was listed on his father's petition, would the record for my grandfather still show up at USCIS? I suppose this scenario could be possible, although I am certainly hoping not, as that would make me ineligible for dual-citizenship.

Conclusion

At this point I am scratching my head, and so is the consulate. Technically I have all the documentation I need to apply for dual-citizenship, including the USCIS certificate. It's very clear that my grandfather immigrated after 1906 (when USCIS started required centralized record keeping) and there is no naturalization record to be found. But these couple of details don't add up.

Thanks so much for taking the time to read my story, and I look forward to any insight or feedback.

Thank you.

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Re: Have all docs but consulate is confused and says 'm

Postby PeterTimber » 08 Dec 2009, 19:49

What you really need is to be patient and determine just what it would take to satisfy the consulate? I assume you have already appealed to the consulate with negative results.

There is a commercial outfit in Chicago that perhaps you may wish to contact at 888-604-1970 (www.icapbrdiging2worlds.com) and explain whats needed and maybe you can work something out. I never used the company but found them to be very responsive and did not charge me for consultations. =Peter=
~Peter~

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Re: Have all docs but consulate is confused and says 'm

Postby johnnyonthespot » 08 Dec 2009, 20:47

Because your grandfather was born in Italy and could possibly have been included in his father's naturalization process, the consulate is not likely to be satisfied until they see evidence that your great-grandfather either did not naturalize or that he did so after your grandfather reached the age of majority (I am not certain if that is 18 or 21 for this purpose).

You are going to have to go back to USCIS and have a search performed on your great-grandfather. The best scenario would be that it comes back with proof of naturalization sometime after your grandfather's 21st birthday. Thankfully, the searches are *much* faster than they were under the old FOIA program. Unfortunately, they are no longer free of charge.

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Re: Have all docs but consulate is confused and says 'm

Postby PCM212 » 08 Dec 2009, 21:58

Thanks, everyone.

Does anyone know whether or not my great-grandfather could have given derivative naturalization to his wife and children if they were not in the US with him and still in Italy? Or would he have had to legally wait until they were physically in the US?

The answer to this question will help determine whether or not I will write to USCIS (post-1906), or have to dig around in local courts (pre-1906). My great-grandfather came over in 1900 and sent for the rest of the family to come in 1907.

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Re: Have all docs but consulate is confused and says 'm

Postby VaDeb » 09 Dec 2009, 02:57

Between 1855 - 1922 in America a woman derived citizenship from her father or husband. Children derived citizenship from their father. I believe from what I have read that if the Italian alien became a citizen, then so would his wife and minor male children.

I guess your question is how Italy would recognize this.

Debbie

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Re: Have all docs but consulate is confused and says 'm

Postby suanj » 09 Dec 2009, 05:49

please read abt the naturalization markings on the ship's manifest http://www.jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/Manifests/occ/
maybe helpful...
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Re: Have all docs but consulate is confused and says 'm

Postby teddi » 11 Dec 2009, 22:04

Does anyone know whether or not my great-grandfather could have given derivative naturalization to his wife and children if they were not in the US with him and still in Italy? Or would he have had to legally wait until they were physically in the US?


Legge 555/1912 states that the spouse and children must be living with the father for the derivative naturalization to occur. If they were living in Italy and joined him later in his new country, they did not naturalize until they joined him.

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Re: Have all docs but consulate is confused and says 'm

Postby PCM212 » 05 Jan 2010, 02:59

Hi all, have an important update. My great-grandfather posted a petition for naturalization in 1912, and it was granted in 1914. My grandfather was 14 at the time. Here is the funny thing, his name was not listed on the petition in the area for 'children's names', although all of his siblings names were. This is also true for the certificate log.

Does this even matter? Or is the derivative citizenship automatic, regardless of what is listed on the petition?

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Re: Have all docs but consulate is confused and says 'm

Postby mler » 05 Jan 2010, 15:26

I believe this is automatic. Not all the people listed on the petition actually naturalize, and the petition had other inaccuracies. My father's name was on his father's petition, but because he was born in the U.S. the naturalization had no effect on him. The naturalization of your greatgrandfather combined with the listing of your grandfather as a citizen of the U.S. seems to confirm this.


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