Do consulates always want census records?

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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DeFilippis78
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Do consulates always want census records?

Postby DeFilippis78 » 06 Feb 2010, 18:07

I was just wondering if this is always mandatory. Ive never seen it listed on dual cit websites that they are a required document but Ive heard some people say they needed to provide census copies at their appointments.

Alicia

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Re: Do consulates always want census records?

Postby corrado » 06 Feb 2010, 20:38

I think they want them in the case where there is a no-record. If you have natualization papers, they don't need them. But a email to the consulate would clear that up.

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Re: Do consulates always want census records?

Postby johnnyonthespot » 06 Feb 2010, 20:39

DeFilippis78 wrote:I was just wondering if this is always mandatory. Ive never seen it listed on dual cit websites that they are a required document but Ive heard some people say they needed to provide census copies at their appointments.

Alicia


Census records are often required as a part of the process of proving that naturalization did not occur at all. They are not required if you have proof that your ancestor naturalized and that he/she did so after the birth of the next person in your lineage.
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Re: Do consulates always want census records?

Postby DeFilippis78 » 06 Feb 2010, 20:54

So if there is naturalization papers I dont need them at all? Also, I contacted NARA and they said the only way to find a census is to go in person and search the microfilm. Then once I locate it and have all the right numbers I can order a certified copy. Is that true? There is no way to do it without going in?

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Re: Do consulates always want census records?

Postby johnnyonthespot » 06 Feb 2010, 21:00

DeFilippis78 wrote:So if there is naturalization papers I dont need them at all? Also, I contacted NARA and they said the only way to find a census is to go in person and search the microfilm. Then once I locate it and have all the right numbers I can order a certified copy. Is that true? There is no way to do it without going in?

Alicia


I believe if you have already located the census (on Ancestry . com, for example) all you need do is give NARA the pertinent information from the top of the sheet: State, County, Township, Enumeration District, Page number. This allows NARA to easily find the sheet in question.
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Re: Do consulates always want census records?

Postby Mulé » 09 Feb 2010, 15:35

I was surprised to have been asked for the 1930s census when I supplied the 1920s census. My m-GGF didn't naturalize or even petition. My m-GF was born in 1917 so the 1920 census solidified the 2 USCIS certified no-records of naturalization that he was still an alien. The 1930s showed he is still an alien and he died in 1932. I too am surprised that census records are even considered as they are notoriously filled with errors, like name misspellings.

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Re: Do consulates always want census records?

Postby PeterTimber » 09 Feb 2010, 15:51

Fraud is always on their minds since it occurs and no doubt there are adminstrative consequences for any fraud that slips thru even if the Consular employee is not responsible!!

There is an old saying that "Administration is more lethal than a bullet"

=Peter=
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Re: Do consulates always want census records?

Postby Mulé » 09 Feb 2010, 18:41

How do you think they discover that there has been fraud?
I seriously doubt they check the validity of all the documents. It just seems very unlikely with the amount of paperwork required.
I wonder how much goes by uncaught and how much actually happens?
I also wonder what the consequences are for the official as well as for the transgressor.

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Re: Do consulates always want census records?

Postby johnnyonthespot » 09 Feb 2010, 18:44

Mulé wrote:How do you think they discover that there has been fraud?
I seriously doubt they check the validity of all the documents. It just seems very unlikely with the amount of paperwork required.
I wonder how much goes by uncaught and how much actually happens?
I also wonder what the consequences are for the official as well as for the transgressor.


Apparently fraud has become a problem. See this post on another board.
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Re: Do consulates always want census records?

Postby Mulé » 09 Feb 2010, 19:04

johnnyonthespot wrote:Apparently fraud has become a problem. See this post on another board.

Yeah I read that there as well. Just not sure about the actual stats. It is a shame the onus is on the consulate to weed out the fraud, just not sure they are staffed for that kind of workload it would require to handle it diligently, IMO.

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Re: Do consulates always want census records?

Postby Pastore » 13 Feb 2010, 20:39

I had this same question. My p-GGF has no records from USCIS,. I haven't searched NARA yet, however, I have checked with them in the past and have good reason to believe there is no record there either. There is, however a census record showing him as naturalized in the 1920 census. Since my GF was born in 1927, that would disqualify me for jure sanguinis citizenship. The problem is that no one in my family has ever heard any naturalization stories, let alone seen any papers to testify to this. Is there any chance I could still qualify if this is the case? I would be going through the Detroit consulate.

Thanks in advance!

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Re: Do consulates always want census records?

Postby mler » 13 Feb 2010, 21:01

If your consulate does not require census records, you're ok; but the "NA" on the 1920 census may cause a problem if they see it. It's possible that your GGF told the census taker that he was a citizen or the census taker made an error. It's also possible that your GGF did naturalize. You may need to check county records as well as NARA. Don't rely on family stories; they are often inaccurate.

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Re: Do consulates always want census records?

Postby Pastore » 14 Feb 2010, 00:48

I did check county records. In Indiana, they are all located at the State Archives. I checked all records from 1890 to 1950 for the county, and there are none located there - petition, naturalization, or otherwise. Detroit does require census records, so I think, unfortunately, I may be at the end of my journey here.

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Re: Do consulates always want census records?

Postby Mulé » 14 Feb 2010, 01:52

Stick with it, until you are told otherwise by the consulate.

I think the consulate would give more weight to the USCIS no records statement and certification over the census records.
What does the 1930s census show?
Have you looked for alien registration cards, war draft cards, ship manifests?
There are many other documents you can find and gather to prove that no naturalization took place.

I wouldn't give up just yet. Good luck...

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Re: Do consulates always want census records?

Postby Pastore » 14 Feb 2010, 12:30

The 1930 census says "Na." I have a 1912 ship manifest that says "non-immigrant alien." I just found a military registration card from 1918 that does say U.S. Citizen. So that plus the 1920 census seems to make it clear that naturalization took place between 1912 and 1918. I can't imagine that he could sign a draft card without being a citizen could he?


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