Was my m-ggm Naturalized or not?

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Mulé
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Was my m-ggm Naturalized or not?

Postby Mulé » 18 Feb 2010, 13:48

Was my m-ggm Naturalized or not during her father's Naturalization?
That is my question, anyone know how this works?

Was she still considered a minor?
Was she still considered under his care, as she was already married before the naturalization took place?

Here are the details I have found.

The father was born in 1870, Italy and came to the US in 1903. He married in 1897 in Italy. He filed a declaration of intent and petition. The oath was dated December 11th, 1917. The naturalization document is dated December 11th, 1917.

On the naturalization document, where they list the Names, ages and places of residence of minor children, she is listed as 19 years old (born 1898 in Italy) and living in a different town (as she was married and with her spouse in 1915).

Anyone know what her status is here? Is she naturalized with her father at age 19 even though she has already been married and out of the family/house for those 2 years?

My first indication is that she did not naturalize, as I have her 1941 Alien registration card. I also found a declaration of intent for her in 1941, but no other documents (petiton/oath/naturalization) which leads me to believe maybe she was already considered a citizen and didn't need to complete it.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Does this in any way close my possibility of citizenship as the spouse of the blood relative I am going through? I wouldn't think so, but wanted to make sure.

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Re: Was my m-ggm Naturalized or not?

Postby johnnyonthespot » 18 Feb 2010, 14:09

What was the nationality of her spouse?

Although your great-grandmother was under the age of 21 (and thus a "minor" child) at the time her father naturalized, she was already married. I would presume that the marriage takes precedence in this case. So once again, I think her spouse's nationality becomes the issue.

If he was Italian, then she probably retained her Italian citizenship until such time as *he* naturalized, if he in fact did so.

If he was US or some other citizenship, then she may have taken on that citizenship immediately upon marrying. I believe the date 1922 figures into this equation, if I remember correctly...

PS: Even if your great-grandmother retained her Italian citizenship, she would not have been able to pass that citizenship on to any of her children who were born prior to January 1, 1948. Prior to that date, Italian citizenship was passed only by the father.
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Re: Was my m-ggm Naturalized or not?

Postby Mulé » 18 Feb 2010, 14:20

Thank you very much for the reply.

Her spouse, my m-ggF was always Italian. He was born in Italy and never naturalized.

I am confused as to her status in this case. Her name is listed on the Naturalization, but noted that she resides elsewhere (with her spouse).

I am confused as to why she had an Alien Registration card in 1941, and then filed a declaration of intent. But maybe after she filed the declaration, someone informed her that she was already naturalized and thus didn't need to follow up with the petition/oath... not sure... I didn't know the minor age was 21 at that time.

Who would have a ruling on this? Would the USCIS be able to make that determination if she was ever a citizen? Do I search for her record specifically or that of her father to determine her status. I have the declaration/petition/oath of the father already. When I searched NARA, they had no information on my m-ggM, but found her father's record.

I am not sure what all that means as for my jure sanguinis application status. It should not matter if she was naturalized after being married to my m-ggF, right? He wouldn't be naturalized too right, since he was married to her? Both my m-ggF and m-ggM were Italians when married in the US. In any case, her father's naturalization happened AFTER she was married (~2 years) and AFTER my m-gF was born (by just shy of 9 months).

Would love to hear anyone else's take on things or advice on how to go about determining her true status.

tia

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Re: Was my m-ggm Naturalized or not?

Postby johnnyonthespot » 18 Feb 2010, 14:45

What I can't figure out (looking at your other thread as well), is what the heck does your m-ggm's status have to do with your application? Since your m-gf was born before January 1, 1948, his mother's status is irrelevant.

It should be more than enough to prove that your m-ggf's Italian citizenship was intact.

Question: are you dealing with the actual citizenship officer in Boston, or with an aide or assistant? My guess is that you have an underling here who does not understand Italian citizenship law and is merely demanding a multitude of unnecessary documents in a misguided attempt to cover all the bases.

PS: The only concern that my feeble mind can imagine is the possibilty that m-ggm was an American citizen at the time she married m-ggf and *possibly* that citizenship law at that time permitted her new spouse to gain American citizenship through marriage, thus ending the Italian line. However, you have proved this is not the case becase she was already married at the time of her father's naturalization.
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Re: Was my m-ggm Naturalized or not?

Postby suanj » 18 Feb 2010, 15:05

Hi,
my opinion is that you have no problem abt your dual citizenship .. because:
-your grandfather born 9 months before that your ggmother had/not had the naturalization by her father; so the child's father transmited the italian citizenship to child at birth

- it is true that your ggmother was minor age, but is also true that a woman, also if in minor age, but it is married, making no more part of father family; she made own family; me too married in minor age second italian laws of 1971, but by legal emancipation effects I was considered in adult age at all effects (only for political vote that was not) also if really I was in minor age (I was 18 old)

second my opinion, her father naturalization having not effects on your ggmother, because she already was married, and in any case she also having italian citizenship by marriage, because the husband never renounced at that...

so in any case your gfather having italian blood rights, by own father (he never naturalized) ...
just my opinion,
regards,
suanj
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Re: Was my m-ggm Naturalized or not?

Postby Mulé » 18 Feb 2010, 15:23

johnnyonthespot wrote:What I can't figure out (looking at your other thread as well), is what the heck does your m-ggm's status have to do with your application? Since your m-gf was born before January 1, 1948, his mother's status is irrelevant.

My m-ggF was born in 1892 in Italy (JS blood line)
My m-ggM was born in 1898 in Italy (non blood line)
My m-ggM was married in 1915 (non blood line)
My m-gf was born in 1917 in US (JS blood line)
My m-ggM's father was naturalized in 1917 (non blood line)
My mother was born in 1944 (JS blood line)
I was born in 1974
johnnyonthespot wrote:It should be more than enough to prove that your m-ggf's Italian citizenship was intact.
I am of the same understanding
johnnyonthespot wrote:Question: are you dealing with the actual citizenship officer in Boston, or with an aide or assistant?
I am dealing with the actual official, not an aide or assistant.
johnnyonthespot wrote:My guess is that you have an underling here who does not understand Italian citizenship law and is merely demanding a multitude of unnecessary documents in a misguided attempt to cover all the bases.
I asked as to why all the additional proofs and I was told that it would have been better if he naturalized AFTER the birth so there was concrete proof. He told me that they have come to find out that some people that have been recognized later had naturalization documents found either at NARA or elsewhere. He didn't tell me what they do in those cases, just that it has happened and NOW they are much more strict on proofs.
johnnyonthespot wrote:
PS: The only concern that my feeble mind can imagine is the possibilty that m-ggm was an American citizen at the time she married m-ggf and *possibly* that citizenship law at that time permitted her new spouse to gain American citizenship through marriage, thus ending the Italian line.
That would be horrible if it were the case. When she was married, she was Italian as was her husband.
johnnyonthespot wrote:However, you have proved this is not the case becase she was already married at the time of her father's naturalization.
Not only was she already married, but she already gave birth to my m-gF. The naturalization of her father was AFTER my m-gF's birth by about 9 months.

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Re: Was my m-ggm Naturalized or not?

Postby Mulé » 18 Feb 2010, 15:26

suanj wrote:Hi,
my opinion is that you have no problem abt your dual citizenship .. because:
Hello, thank you very much for the response.
suanj wrote:-your grandfather born 9 months before that your ggmother had/not had the naturalization by her father; so the child's father transmited the italian citizenship to child at birth.
EXACTLY, so it should be a moot point non the less, right?
suanj wrote:- it is true that your ggmother was minor age, but is also true that a woman, also if in minor age, but it is married, making no more part of father family; she made own family; me too married in minor age second italian laws of 1971, but by legal emancipation effects I was considered in adult age at all effects (only for political vote that was not) also if really I was in minor age (I was 18 old)
So she could possibly not be naturalized.
suanj wrote:second my opinion, her father naturalization having not effects on your ggmother, because she already was married, and in any case she also having italian citizenship by marriage, because the husband never renounced at that...
She should not have lost Italian citizenship in either case, right, as the naturalization of her father was after 1912, and she married an Italian citizen, although happening before the Naturalization event.
suanj wrote:so in any case your gfather having italian blood rights, by own father (he never naturalized) ...
just my opinion,
regards,
suanj

Thanks, that is my understanding as well. Just not sure of the hoops I am being made to jump through.

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Re: Was my m-ggm Naturalized or not?

Postby suanj » 18 Feb 2010, 15:58

No problem for you..
sure...
regards,
suanj
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