Please Help! Brick Wall – 1948 law

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sillysuba
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Please Help! Brick Wall – 1948 law

Postby sillysuba » 22 Feb 2010, 20:05

Please help me solve the mystery behind the 1948 law.

To clarify my citizenship situation:

GGF Born in Italy, Naturalized in NY while GM was a minor

GM born in NY, Never specifically renounced citizenship but married my non Italian GF in NY in 1944.

Mom born in NY 1949

I have heard that according to the 555/1912 GM broke the Italian blood line but that a 1948 ruling overrides this.

Question:

If my grandmother broke the line in 1944 through marriage to a foreigner is she still able to pass the citizenship through to her children born after 1948?

If yes, please tell me which section of which law verifies this so I can have it on hand.


Thanks so much...

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Re: Please Help! Brick Wall – 1948 law

Postby johnnyonthespot » 22 Feb 2010, 21:49

The 1948 rule is irrelevant in this matter; the question is, did your grandmother lose her right to Italian citizenship when she married.

I think not, but am not certain.

Using the case of your great-grandfather, as an example, even though your grandmother was a minor at the time he naturalized, this is not seen as altering her right to Italian citizenship. It is an odd quirk, but the idea is that she was already a US citizen (by virtue or having been born on US soil) and thus there was no need for her to become a citizen [again] along with her father.

If she married a US citizen, I would suggest that the same concept applies and so, once again, her italianità was not impacted. On the other hand, if she married a citizen of another country...

It will take someone more knowledgeable than me to give you an absolute answer, however. Which consulate would you be applying at?
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Re: Please Help! Brick Wall – 1948 law

Postby mler » 22 Feb 2010, 22:55

I agree with johnnyonthespot. Your grandmother did not lose her Italian citizenship when she married a non-Italian. It will not even be an issue at the consulate.

Think of how many of our grandparents and greatgrandparents married non-Italian citizens. Were this an issue, many of us would have been unable to obtain citizenship recognition. BTW, marrying a U.S. citizen would be the same as marrying a citizen of Germany, France, Argentina, etc. from Italy's perspective.

Don't mention it; they won't either.

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Re: Please Help! Brick Wall – 1948 law

Postby sillysuba » 25 Feb 2010, 16:30

Hi,

Thanks so much for your replies.

I have applied to the NY consulate.

My GF was a U.S. citizen at the time of my GM marriage.

The constitution of 1948 is what I was referring to. As far as I understand the orig law of 1912 (555/1912) is what made it possible for us Italian Americans able to apply for Italian citizenship through blood. In the orig law it states that Italian women marrying foreigners lose their citizenship and cannot pass it on to their children. I believe this may have been overturned in 1948 as it was unconstitutional and against women rights. I have read that women are able to pass on the citizenship through to their children born after 1948. However, I have not found any information that clarifies if that 1912 marriage law still applies to GM married in 1944.

Question is did she lost her citizenship in the first place or was this orig law overturned by the constitution?

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Re: Please Help! Brick Wall – 1948 law

Postby johnnyonthespot » 25 Feb 2010, 16:45

Prior to January 1, 1948, Italian citizenship was passed only by the father, regardless of the mother's own citizenship status.

On or after January 1, 1948, Italian women were also able to pass citizenship directly to their children. Note, "Italian" women. This means that had your grandmother lost her Italian citizenship (per the other discussion), then she would not be able to pass citizenship to her children.

However, as we already discussed, we do not believe your grandmother lost her right to Italian citizenship when she married. To sum up:

1) We believe your grandmother had the rights of Italian citizenship even after marrying a US citizen, and

2) Because her children were born on or after January 1, 1948, she was able to pass her Italian citizenship onto her children.
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Re: Please Help! Brick Wall – 1948 law

Postby teddi » 26 Feb 2010, 07:08

sillysuba wrote:Hi,

Thanks so much for your replies.

I have applied to the NY consulate.

My GF was a U.S. citizen at the time of my GM marriage.

The constitution of 1948 is what I was referring to. As far as I understand the orig law of 1912 (555/1912) is what made it possible for us Italian Americans able to apply for Italian citizenship through blood. In the orig law it states that Italian women marrying foreigners lose their citizenship and cannot pass it on to their children. I believe this may have been overturned in 1948 as it was unconstitutional and against women rights. I have read that women are able to pass on the citizenship through to their children born after 1948. However, I have not found any information that clarifies if that 1912 marriage law still applies to GM married in 1944.

Question is did she lost her citizenship in the first place or was this orig law overturned by the constitution?

You are correct. Prior to 1948, Italian women who married a citizen of a country which automatically naturalized wives lost their Italian citizenship. For example, an Italian woman marrying an American prior to 1922 lost her Italian citizenship- after the US law changed in 1922, marrying an American man no longer caused loss of Italian citizenship.

Similarly, prior to 1948 the wife of an Italian man, who naturalized in a country automatically naturalizing wives along with husbands, lost her Italian citizenship if she resided with her husband in his new country.

After 1948, the change wasn't immediate- it took a separate court ruling to reverse application of legge 555/1912 article 11 for each woman, until 1983 when the law was finally changed. Women who had lost their citizenship after 1948 were able to reclaim it with a declaration at the consulate.

Unfortunately, women who lost their citizenship by marriage prior to 1948 are still unable to regain it without a lengthy court battle. There have been a number of cases where Italian courts have awarded Italian citizenship to descendants of Italian women who lost citizenship by marriage prior to 1948.

Fortunately your GM's marriage to a US citizen prior to 1948 (and after 1922) did not cause loss of Italian citizenship.

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Re: Please Help! Brick Wall – 1948 law

Postby Mulé » 26 Feb 2010, 14:31

teddi wrote:Similarly, prior to 1948 the wife of an Italian man, who naturalized in a country automatically naturalizing wives along with husbands, lost her Italian citizenship if she resided with her husband in his new country.
Teddi I was hoping you could shed some insight on my dilemma which is similar to what you posed above. Was my m-ggM naturalized or not?

Similar case, my m-ggM was listed as a minor on her father's naturalization document. When my m-ggM was already married (1915) for 2 years and had 2 children before the Oath and Naturalization (1917) was done. She married an Italian, so no automatic loss of citizenship there, but did she Naturalize with her father, even though she was married and out of the house 2 years prior?

Here is where I thought you might have insight. Did my m-ggF automatically Naturalize if and when his wife (m-ggM) did from her father's naturalization document? Does any of that make sense?

tia

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Re: Please Help! Brick Wall – 1948 law

Postby johnnyonthespot » 26 Feb 2010, 14:49

At the moment she married, her father lost "ownership" of her. Yes, yes, I know - a very bad choice of words!

But, the point is, once she married, she was no longer under the domain of her father and his naturalization would no longer affect her status, regardless of her age.

So far as I am concerned, your maternal great-grandmother was and remained Italian through-and-through. And therefore, no, your maternal great-grandfather did not lose his Italian citizenship either (unless he later naturalized on his own).
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Re: Please Help! Brick Wall – 1948 law

Postby mler » 26 Feb 2010, 14:53

It would have been a problem if your m-ggF had naturalized. In 1917 (before the Cable Act of 1922), a woman in the U.S. lost her citizenship and took on her husband's citizenship; it was not the other way around.

In fact, it did not matter how she obtained her initial citizenship. My grandmother was U.S. born and thus obtain her citizenship jus soli. When she married my Italian grandfather before 1922, she lost her U.S. citizenship and had to naturalize to reacquire it. Clearly the husband's status superceded that of the father.

You don't have a problem.

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Re: Please Help! Brick Wall – 1948 law

Postby Mulé » 26 Feb 2010, 15:16

Thanks for the replies. I am of the same consensus, I just need the USCIS to confirm it her status. Most likely the USCIS improperly thinks that my m-ggM is Naturalized, not that is should make any difference either way, she was an Italian married and Italian in 1915, had my m-gF in 1917, then 9 months later her father naturalized and included her on the certificate (1917). The USCIS would not have known about the marriage of one of the minor children on her father's declaration/petition right? I can't get anyone on the line at the LIVE number for USCIS... it is so funny... if I were an immigrant to the US I would be so confused, as I am a citizen and extremely confused by the obfuscation of the process.

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Re: Please Help! Brick Wall – 1948 law

Postby mler » 26 Feb 2010, 18:12

It seems you are applying through your ggF, so her status would not be at issue. Your gf obtained citizenship through his father, so even if his mother had naturalized, it would not affect him. The consulate will never assume that a man naturalized through his wife. In fact, up to 1983 (I think that is the year) a woman married to an Italian citizen automatically became Italian. It didn't work the other way.

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Re: Please Help! Brick Wall – 1948 law

Postby Mulé » 26 Feb 2010, 20:16

That is my understanding as well. Not sure why I am being made to jump through these hoops. :(

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Re: Please Help! Brick Wall – 1948 law

Postby teddi » 26 Feb 2010, 21:22

Did my m-ggF automatically Naturalize if and when his wife (m-ggM) did from her father's naturalization document? Does any of that make sense?

No unfortunately (or fortunately in this case) the laws were sexist, and only women were subject to automatic naturalization by marriage. GGF was safe.

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Re: Please Help! Brick Wall – 1948 law

Postby Mulé » 26 Feb 2010, 21:51

teddi wrote:
Did my m-ggF automatically Naturalize if and when his wife (m-ggM) did from her father's naturalization document? Does any of that make sense?

No unfortunately (or fortunately in this case) the laws were sexist, and only women were subject to automatic naturalization by marriage. GGF was safe.
Yeah that has been the consensus. I now just need confirmation from USCIS that my m-ggM naturalized or didn't... ha...


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