certificate of italian citizenship questions

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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reneek232000
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certificate of italian citizenship questions

Postby reneek232000 » 03 Mar 2010, 02:43

My appointment is in 3 months at the Miami Consulate. I was reading through older posts I made in this forum, and some one wrote that I would need a certificate of citizenship from the town in Italy that my GGF was born in stating his name, parents, birth and that he was an italian citizen at the time of his birth.
I have no idea what this is or why I need this considering I have his Italian birth certificate from the town he was born in, that includes his name, parents, and birth. The document is in italian. I also have his US naturalization papers that state he was an italian citizen.
Can someone please tell me what this"certificate of citizenship" is and why I would need this when I have all of his Italian documents and US papers.
I need to make sure I'm not missing something, while I still have a couple months until my appointment.

Also while I am on topic, the Miami consulate said I just need to go through one blood line. In my case this would be GGF, GF, M, myself, my daughter. Since I am going through my GGF do I need my GGM birth or my GM birth.

I have so many questions I don't want to burden anyone with more. Thanks if you reply :)

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johnnyonthespot
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Re: certificate of italian citizenship questions

Postby johnnyonthespot » 03 Mar 2010, 04:50

Unlike in the US, merely being born on Italian soil does not necessarily confer Italian citizenship. Miami, I believe, is one of the few consulates which require that you prove that your ancestor was not simply born in Italy but was actually an Italain citiizen. Hence, the need to obtain a Certificato di Cittadinanza. You get this from the Stato Civile/Anagrafe office in your ancestral comune; the same place you got the birth certificate from.

Frankly, I cannot understand why all of the consulates don't demand this document. Some have argued that the final determiner of citizenship applications is the ancestral comune (possibly this is why many consulates require waiting until the comune has registered your documents before allowing you to apply for an Italian passport). If this is true, then there may have been cases where a comune has raised its hand and said, "Excuse me, but we never said grandpa Giuseppe was a citizen, just that he was born here..." If Miami got burned that way just once, they might be inclined to never let it happen again.

As to the other question, Italian law would lead one to believe that you need to present documents only for persons in the direct bloodline, as they are the only people that matter. I don't know why some consulates request non-bloodline docs as well, but I have not heard of an application being refused when those docs were not available. I think its a "cover all the bases" request but not an absolute requirement.
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reneek232000
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Re: certificate of italian citizenship questions

Postby reneek232000 » 03 Mar 2010, 21:34

Thanks for the reply it helps a lot.
I just e mailed the consulate and they told me it wasn't needed, and I should be ok but I think I am going to request the certificate of citizenship just in case.
They also told me they don't need non bloodline ancestors but request the copies in case something needs to be verified. The problem with this is my grandmother was born on a farm in Texas and doesn't have a birth certificate.
The consulate told me last year that they didn't need my GGF death certificate b/c he was born in 1883 and there would be no way for him to still be alive. Now they tell me they need it. When he died he was already naturalized as a US citizen, but he died in Rome visiting his sister. I sent a request for his death certificate to ROme and got a letter back saying they needed a signed letter with ID photocopy of the person requesting the certificate. I sent them what they needed 5 months ago and haven't heard anything.
Last but not least the consulate told me I could bring in his Original Naturalization paper and since it was so delicate and about to fall apart they would make a photocopy of it. NOW they tell me they need the original or a certified copy. I don't even know where to get one and I don't want to give them the original b/c it is about to crumble it is so old.

Any other advice you can give me I only have 3 months to go.

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reneek232000
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Re: certificate of italian citizenship questions

Postby reneek232000 » 03 Mar 2010, 21:37

by the way, why do these people at the consulate tell you one thing then turn around and switch it into something else. Not to mention i have talked to people on here that went to the Miami consulate and there experience and documents turned in were different as well. One man told me they didn't take any of the death certificates, yet Miami is telling me they NEED them, no exceptions.

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CapeTownItalians
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Re: certificate of italian citizenship questions

Postby CapeTownItalians » 03 Jan 2011, 11:00

A quick question to those out here who know;

GGF from Trapani, Sicilia, migrated to S.A. had 5 children, one being our GM. He never gave up his Italian citizenship. We his GGChildren want to apply for Italian citizenship???

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Re: certificate of italian citizenship questions

Postby johnnyonthespot » 03 Jan 2011, 13:07

CapeTownItalians wrote:A quick question to those out here who know;

GGF from Trapani, Sicilia, migrated to S.A. had 5 children, one being our GM. He never gave up his Italian citizenship. We his GGChildren want to apply for Italian citizenship???


The short answer is this will only work if your grnadmother's children (your father? your mother?) were born on or after January 1, 1948. Prior to that date, Italian citizenship was passed only through the father.

Tell us more about your situation and your lineage.
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Re: certificate of italian citizenship questions

Postby CapeTownItalians » 03 Jan 2011, 13:21

Our GM Angeline Lipari was born in 1902 and our mother was born in 1930
She, our GM was the first born to our GGF Bartollomeo Lipari, from Trapani.
So it does not look good, hey? Silly ruling, the date, the fact of the matter is our GGF was an Italian citizen and never gave up his Italian
citizenship? In other words it is a no go?

Ciao
Linda

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reneek232000
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Re: certificate of italian citizenship questions

Postby reneek232000 » 03 Jan 2011, 15:08

Good news I received my citizenship . I had my appointment in Miami in June 2010 and got my certificate in December . If you have an appointment in Miami here is some advice. When you arrive dont wait in the line. Let them know you have an appointment or you might miss it. Have all your documents in order. Someone on this site told me they didn't need death certificates but they took all of mine!! And even though you only need the bloodlines certificates they want to see the non bloodlines certificates. Just be on time and prepared !! Good luck!

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Re: certificate of italian citizenship questions

Postby johnnyonthespot » 03 Jan 2011, 15:10

Linda,

Just as in many countries where women did not gain the right to vote until relatively recent times (and still do not in some places), Italain women were missing many important rights prior to the implementation of the new post-WWII Italian constitution on January 1, 1948. Among these was the right to pass citizenship directly onto their children.

Unfortunately, since your mother was born in 1930, she could not have inherited citizenship from her mother (your grandmother). Some attorneys claim to have successfully challenged this rule in the Italian courts, however this is not inexpensive and the results are far from guaranteed. There are at least a few threads here on this subject; here are two of them:

http://italiangenealogy.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=18631/

http://italiangenealogy.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=19239/

I presume that your grandmother married a non-Italian; is that correct?
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Re: certificate of italian citizenship questions

Postby Drew927 » 03 Jan 2011, 19:37

Would someone have a copy of their letter sent to the comune requesting a Certificate of Citizenship? Just the body of the letter as a template :)

Drew

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Re: certificate of italian citizenship questions

Postby sforza » 04 Jan 2011, 05:26

This is what I used to obtain the citizenship cert. Note that this also includes a request for the birth cert; I requested these at the same time. If you don't need it, delete the first bullet.


Egregi Signori,

Mi chiamo [your name], ed abito negli Stati Uniti all'indirizzo sopradetto. Cerco informazioni sul mio [r'ship, eg. nonno, bisnonno, trisavolo, etc.], [name], che nato nel comune di [town] il [date]. Sua madre era di [mother's name]. Suo padre era [father's name].

Cerco questi dati per ottenere la cittadinanza Italiana. Per quello scopo, il Consolato d’Italia mi ha chiesto di fornire due documenti. Vi sarei molto grato se poteste spedirmi:

• Estratto integrale dell'Atto di Nascita di [name] [this is the birth cert, if needed]

• Certificato di trascorso possesso della cittadinanza italiana di [name]

Vi ringrazio in anticipo per la vostra gentilezza e premura, e vi prego di addebitarmi tutte le spese postali e dei certificati. [offering to pay for postage and the certificates]

Distinti saluti,

[you]

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Re: certificate of italian citizenship questions

Postby Drew927 » 04 Jan 2011, 06:39

Thanks sforza!!

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Re: certificate of italian citizenship questions

Postby CapeTownItalians » 04 Jan 2011, 07:19

Hi Carmine

Our GGF was born in Trapani, both parents italian, he was born in September 1875 and came over to South Africa, where he married a
local, and had 5 children, as I said and our GM was the first born, Angela
Lipari. Yes our GM married a local too, and so did our mother.
Still means nothing I suppose? My sister has also been in contact with the
Italian lawyer, Luigi and yes he also tells her that there is a very good chance for us also at 3000 euros?? After reading your feedback, I am begining to have my doubts. Is it really worth persuing this?

Ciao
Linda


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