Bizarre question about naturalization law but who knows....

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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Bizarre question about naturalization law but who knows....

Postby DeFilippis78 » 09 Mar 2010, 04:35

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Re: Bizarre question about naturalization law but who knows.

Postby VaDeb » 09 Mar 2010, 04:49

Creative try, but a minor child naturalizes with its father. Even if the consulate would buy your theory, I think the child would be considered naturalized at birth and thus giving up Italian citizenship. Just my opinion.

It will be interesting to see what others think.

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Re: Bizarre question about naturalization law but who knows.

Postby DeFilippis78 » 09 Mar 2010, 04:57

This has to be the most desperate attempt you guys have ever heard :lol:

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Re: Bizarre question about naturalization law but who knows.

Postby johnnyonthespot » 09 Mar 2010, 11:33

VaDeb wrote:Creative try, but a minor child naturalizes with its father. Even if the consulate would buy your theory, I think the child would be considered naturalized at birth and thus giving up Italian citizenship. Just my opinion.

It will be interesting to see what others think.

Debbie


Debbie, "minor child naturalizes with its father" applies only to children born in Italy or to naturalizations which occurred prior to July 1, 1912 in which case it doesn't matter where the child was born.

Alicia, sorry, but it is the moment of birth which counts, presumably because the moment of conception cannot be determined with any degree of accuracy - especially at the time the relevant laws were written.
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Re: Bizarre question about naturalization law but who knows.

Postby DeFilippis78 » 09 Mar 2010, 13:21

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Re: Bizarre question about naturalization law but who knows.

Postby mler » 09 Mar 2010, 16:59

It's discouraging to be so near and yet so far. But keep up the good fight through your other line.

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Re: Bizarre question about naturalization law but who knows.

Postby DeFilippis78 » 09 Mar 2010, 17:13

The worst part is he naturalized on my birthday. Its bad enough it was 4 months before my grandfather was born, but on my birthday! I wonder if with a lawyer there is a way around it! He naturalized in October and his son was born in February, its so close I can scream.

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Re: Bizarre question about naturalization law but who knows.

Postby mler » 09 Mar 2010, 17:43

I doubt a lawyer can help because the law is pretty specific about the naturalization having to take place after the child is born. It doesn't pay to agonize over what could have been when you still have an open avenue toward citizenship.

Concentrate your efforts on what is clearly possible--albeit difficult--and try to forget this unfortunate problem with dates.

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Re: Bizarre question about naturalization law but who knows.

Postby DeFilippis78 » 09 Mar 2010, 17:51

How true! It still stinks! But at least I still have a shot at it through another line :) If only the whole law of females and 1948 were done away with Id be golden. Oh well.

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Re: Bizarre question about naturalization law but who knows.

Postby johnnyonthespot » 09 Mar 2010, 18:37

DeFilippis78 wrote:How true! ...If only the whole law of females and 1948 were done away with Id be golden. Oh well.

Alicia


Actually, there is an Italian law firm ( http://www.luigipaiano.com/eng ) which claims to have had some success on this front...
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Re: Bizarre question about naturalization law but who knows.

Postby DeFilippis78 » 09 Mar 2010, 18:43

And what is the fee...an arm and a leg? :)

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Re: Bizarre question about naturalization law but who knows.

Postby teddi » 18 Mar 2010, 07:52

johnnyonthespot wrote:
VaDeb wrote:Creative try, but a minor child naturalizes with its father. Even if the consulate would buy your theory, I think the child would be considered naturalized at birth and thus giving up Italian citizenship. Just my opinion.

It will be interesting to see what others think.

Debbie


Debbie, "minor child naturalizes with its father" applies only to children born in Italy or to naturalizations which occurred prior to July 1, 1912 in which case it doesn't matter where the child was born.


The pre-1912 loss of Italian citizenship for US-born children whose father naturalizes is enforced by only a couple of consulates (NY and SF come to mind).

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Re: Bizarre question about naturalization law but who knows.

Postby johnnyonthespot » 18 Mar 2010, 11:33

teddi wrote:
The pre-1912 loss of Italian citizenship for US-born children whose father naturalizes is enforced by only a couple of consulates (NY and SF come to mind).


Teddi, this has been true, however as consulates crack down in regards to proof of naturalization and/or non-naturalization ( http://www.servizidemografici.interno.i ... MENTO=1083 ), I would consider it probable that enforcing the 1912 rule would become more prevalant as well.

After all, it is the law, and there is no explanation why some consulates were not enforcing it other than the possibility that they simply were not aware.
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Re: Bizarre question about naturalization law but who knows.

Postby teddi » 19 Mar 2010, 09:24

After all, it is the law


No, it's interpretation and application of law, which is part of the citizenship officer's job. NY & SF consulates certainly have the right to interpret it that way, just as other consulates have the right to interpret it otherwise. Persons recognized as Italian citizens by either criteria are equally Italian.

I'm not following your reasoning about this view becoming more prevalent. The NY & SF consulate interpretation that pre-1912 US naturalizations of parents also naturalized their children (who were already born US citizens) is somehow connected with a crackdown on falsified and counterfeited application documents? :?

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Re: Bizarre question about naturalization law but who knows.

Postby johnnyonthespot » 19 Mar 2010, 11:43

My understanding is that the law was quite clear on this subject until Legge 13 Giugno 1912, n. 555 overrode it. Frankly, I continue to find this entire process by which individual consulates make such important decisions without clear guidance from Rome to be rather strange.

Your point is well taken though; not all consulates seem to be enforcing the 1912 cutoff.

My other point (linking to fraud) was simply that consulates seem to be taking the entire issue of previous naturalization much more seriously, demanading far more proof in either case (naturalization did or did not occur) than they were just a year ago.
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