"Neither you, nor your father, nor your grandfather...&

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
User avatar
italianstall10n
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 17
Joined: 22 Mar 2010, 05:03

"Neither you, nor your father, nor your grandfather...&

Postby italianstall10n » 08 Apr 2010, 17:04

Under the qualifications for citizenship through blood, they all have a statement like that. I was wondering, other than naturalizing, what are other ways my father or grandfather could have officially renounced their right to Italian citizenship. Is serving in the the US armed forces one of the ways? I am wondering exactly how or why one would renounce their right to Italian citizenship when they are already an American citizen... Any answers?

User avatar
johnnyonthespot
Master
Master
Posts: 5229
Joined: 04 Aug 2008, 15:01
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: "Neither you, nor your father, nor your grandfather

Postby johnnyonthespot » 08 Apr 2010, 18:10

As a practical matter, one only renounces citizenship when taking on or already possessing another citizenship; otherwise you would become a "stateless" person.

I am a dual US/Italian citizen. It would be unlikely but not impossible for me to officially renounce one or the other of those two for any number of reasons. I might do so, for example, hoping to avoid paying taxes to one country or the other. If I were especially wealthy with a crumbling marriage, I might choose whichever country I thought would get me the best outcome in divorce court. If these two countries were to ever go to war with each other, I might find it in my best interest to choose sides and make it official by renouncing the other (the first half of WWII comes to mind...). Whatever.

It is very difficult to formally renounce US citizenship in a way which will "stick". See http://www.travel.state.gov/law/citizen ... p_776.html

Italy makes the process a bit easier (though they charge Euro200 for the privilege!): http://www.conssanfrancisco.esteri.it/N ... NOUNCE.doc

For Italians, until fairly recently, taking on a new citizenship (such as naturalizing in the US) automatically caused the loss of Italian citizenship. This is no longer the case.
Carmine

My hobby is finding things. Having found most of my own, I am happy to help others find theirs. PM me! :)

User avatar
italianstall10n
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 17
Joined: 22 Mar 2010, 05:03

Re: "Neither you, nor your father, nor your grandfather

Postby italianstall10n » 09 Apr 2010, 17:08

So my question then becomes, were soldiers in WWII fighting for the US required to renounce their right to Italian citizenship? Has anyone heard of any instances in which this is the case/ To be more detailed, lets say the GGF came over, naturalized AFTER the GF was born. Therefore, the GF would be eligible for dual-citizenship. Did the GF has to renounce this right in order to fight for the US in WWII. I guess I am asking, is it possible for Italian veterans of WWII to pass down their citizenship, or did they have to renounce it in order to serve in the military?

User avatar
johnnyonthespot
Master
Master
Posts: 5229
Joined: 04 Aug 2008, 15:01
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: "Neither you, nor your father, nor your grandfather

Postby johnnyonthespot » 09 Apr 2010, 17:24

The short answer is, no.

Your grandfather was born an American in the eyes of the law at that time and thus there was nothing for him to renounce. The fact that current Italian law recognizes that he effectively inherited Italian citizenship from his father does not change the fact that he was as American as apple pie at the time of WWII.
Carmine

My hobby is finding things. Having found most of my own, I am happy to help others find theirs. PM me! :)

User avatar
PeterTimber
Master
Master
Posts: 6817
Joined: 16 Dec 2007, 18:57
Location: Yonkers NY

Re: "Neither you, nor your father, nor your grandfather

Postby PeterTimber » 09 Apr 2010, 17:42

I do know that wartime can overcome ANY law, eventhe Constitution of the USA.

During WW11 German and Italian POW's born in the USA!!!! by declaration of the Constitution of the United States were forever endowed with US citizenship and yet a Sicilian italian army deserter from Sicily taken as a child to Sicily by his divorced parent as a US born male child was drafted into the Italian Army, deserted and taken POW by US armed forces and brought to a POW camp out west called his mother and said come and get me outta here!!! The mother promptly with US birth certificate in hand went and was denied giving her son his freedom since he was a POW (the Constitution has no limitations on birthright). The mother took this to the supreme court and War Secretary Stimpson and President Roosevelt intervened and declared all US CITIZEN BORN POWS WERE TO BE DEPORTED DESPITE THEIR CITIZENSHIP; the reason being that there were so many thousands of American born POWS and to release them all at one time was not politically wise no matter WHAT the Constitution said.

Thus your question is a bit amusing and I wanted to furnish another perspective. =Peter=
~Peter~

User avatar
acupxpa
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 19
Joined: 18 Mar 2010, 16:34
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: "Neither you, nor your father, nor your grandfather

Postby acupxpa » 10 Apr 2010, 01:09

I have a related question, if anyone can shed some light on.....

In speaking to my Italian born Uncle the other day and telling him my plan to pursue dual citizenship, my cousin became interested in his possibility of pursuing the same. My Uncle said that his father was naturalized when he was a child, which I thought automatically made him a US citizen. He then went on to serve in WWII and said he was naturalized in the military when he was in England "just to make sure".....So, my question is.. can you be naturalized twice? Does the second time count? And I thought it strange that this happened on foreign soil..

Thanks for any input. Gina

User avatar
johnnyonthespot
Master
Master
Posts: 5229
Joined: 04 Aug 2008, 15:01
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: "Neither you, nor your father, nor your grandfather

Postby johnnyonthespot » 10 Apr 2010, 01:25

'tis a complex question...

If your Italy-born uncle was in the US and was still a minor (under 21, if I recall correctly) at the time his father naturalized and his father listed him on his Petition for Citizenship, then, yes, he automatically naturalized as well.

If your uncle was still in Italy at the time his father naturalized and did not enter the US prior to his 21st birthday, or if his father did not include him on the Petition or, or, ... well, there have been some questions as to what happens under those circumstances.

The part about naturalizing while in England just to be sure - I am not at all clear on. However, it does sound as though your uncle is pretty certain of his status and I suspect that his view is correct.
Carmine

My hobby is finding things. Having found most of my own, I am happy to help others find theirs. PM me! :)

User avatar
acupxpa
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 19
Joined: 18 Mar 2010, 16:34
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: "Neither you, nor your father, nor your grandfather

Postby acupxpa » 10 Apr 2010, 01:47

Thanks Johnny on the spot..

My Uncle was in the US and was a minor at the time his father was naturalized.

So I guess, my cousin would have to
1. see if his father was included his grandfathers petition.
2. See if there is any record of the military naturalization, which if there is -I'm guessing would exclude my cousin from being eligible for citizenship by blood as he was born after that time.

I just want to say thank you to all you very knowledgable and experienced folks who respond in these forums, your info is invaluable.. Gina


Return to “Emigration, Immigration, Naturalization and Italian citizenship”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 2 guests