GGF, GGM, GF born in Italy. GGF became US citizen. confused.

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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GGF, GGM, GF born in Italy. GGF became US citizen. confused.

Postby somedude » 07 May 2010, 03:40

Hi -

My great grandfather (GGF), great grandmother (GGM), and grandfather (GF) were all born in Italy.

They came to the USA in 1924 when my GF was 2 years old.

My GGF applied for US citizenship in 1929 and got it. My GF at that point was 7 years old. Since he was under 18, he got US citizenship automatically.

Am I still eligible for Italian citizenship?

If so, do the birth and marriage certificates from Italy require Apostilles?

Thanks for any/all help on this.

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Re: GGF, GGM, GF born in Italy. GGF became US citizen. confu

Postby Squigy » 07 May 2010, 03:53

somedude wrote:Hi -

My great grandfather (GGF), great grandmother (GGM), and grandfather (GF) were all born in Italy.

They came to the USA in 1924 when my GF was 2 years old.

My GGF applied for US citizenship in 1929 and got it. My GF at that point was 7 years old. Since he was under 18, he got US citizenship automatically.

Am I still eligible for Italian citizenship?

If so, do the birth and marriage certificates from Italy require Apostilles?

Thanks for any/all help on this.


Without another line, no. When your grandfather was naturalized he lost all citizenship rights in Italy, and therefore could not pass it on to your father.
My Italian surnames:

Caserta: Maietta, Rossano, Tessitore, Negro, Peluso, Musone

Campobasso: D'Andrea, Barile

Catanzaro: Fiorelli/Fiorillo, Romito

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Re: GGF, GGM, GF born in Italy. GGF became US citizen. confu

Postby somedude » 07 May 2010, 04:02

Squigy wrote:
somedude wrote:Hi -

My great grandfather (GGF), great grandmother (GGM), and grandfather (GF) were all born in Italy.

They came to the USA in 1924 when my GF was 2 years old.

My GGF applied for US citizenship in 1929 and got it. My GF at that point was 7 years old. Since he was under 18, he got US citizenship automatically.

Am I still eligible for Italian citizenship?

If so, do the birth and marriage certificates from Italy require Apostilles?

Thanks for any/all help on this.


Without another line, no. When your grandfather was naturalized he lost all citizenship rights in Italy, and therefore could not pass it on to your father.


Even though my GF never applied to be naturalized ? He became a US citizen only because his father (my GGF) became a citizen and my GF was under age.

I ask because this is very similar (but not exactly the same) as the case I've seen listed on consulate websites:

One is eligible if their US born grandfather was born of an Italian great grandfather before the great grandfather became a US citizen.


My case is similar to this, except that my grandfather was born in Italy (of Italian parents) before his parents became US citizens.


Thanks for any help here.

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Re: GGF, GGM, GF born in Italy. GGF became US citizen. confu

Postby CowryShells » 07 May 2010, 11:32

I can answer one of your questions, that is:

Birth and marriage certificates from Italy do not require Apostilles. They should, however, have the registrar's stamp. It would not be accepted if it were printed out from a microfilm, for example. A digital version received though Email would not be accepted either. (Apostilles are for those documents created outside of Italy.)

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Re: GGF, GGM, GF born in Italy. GGF became US citizen. confu

Postby johnnyonthespot » 07 May 2010, 11:36

If your grandfather had been born in the US, he would (obviously) have been a US citizen and thus when his father naturalized there was no need for grandfather to become a US citizen all over again.

However, if your grandfather was born in Italy and was still a minor child when his father naturalized, then he (grandfather) would have automatically naturalized when his father did.

It might seem a quirky technicality, but that is the way it works.

Thus, I am sorry to say that Squiggy's analysis is correct.
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Re: GGF, GGM, GF born in Italy. GGF became US citizen. confu

Postby ricbru » 07 May 2010, 13:47

There is a way to get it, even if you hit a road block.
To go over this situation and get italian citizenship, you can go to italy, get a resident permit, live there as legal resident, and after that you can apply for italian citizenshi adding to your paperwork the certificate issued from population record office, that you were a legal resident for 3 years.
I hope it helps
bye Riccardo

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Re: GGF, GGM, GF born in Italy. GGF became US citizen. confu

Postby somedude » 07 May 2010, 15:31

johnnyonthespot wrote:If your grandfather had been born in the US, he would (obviously) have been a US citizen and thus when his father naturalized there was no need for grandfather to become a US citizen all over again.

However, if your grandfather was born in Italy and was still a minor child when his father naturalized, then he (grandfather) would have automatically naturalized when his father did.

It might seem a quirky technicality, but that is the way it works.

Thus, I am sorry to say that Squiggy's analysis is correct.


Yes, but I thought that the reason you cannot get Italian citizenship if you are born after your ancestor naturalized was because of the renouncement of Italy/Italian citizenship on the naturalization document?

If so, my grandfather was too young to have renounced his Italian citizenship legally, and never renounced it later in life.

As such, I THINK I am still eligible for Italian citizenship.

I am following up with multiple consulates as we speak, but they take forever to respond to emails. (they being San Francisco and Newark).

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Re: GGF, GGM, GF born in Italy. GGF became US citizen. confu

Postby VaDeb » 07 May 2010, 16:26

Somedude

Unfortunately what you think, no matter how logical it may sound, will make a difference to the Italian Government. Its an Italian law. You have received advice from some very familiar with this subject. Hope you can benefit from the advice.

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Re: GGF, GGM, GF born in Italy. GGF became US citizen. confu

Postby johnnyonthespot » 07 May 2010, 16:33

somedude wrote:Yes, but I thought that the reason you cannot get Italian citizenship if you are born after your ancestor naturalized was because of the renouncement of Italy/Italian citizenship on the naturalization document?

If so, my grandfather was too young to have renounced his Italian citizenship legally, and never renounced it later in life.


Do you have children of your own? If so, then you know that you speak for them in most matters, correct?

Well, it is the same principal at work here. Your great-grandfather effectively made the decision for his underage son. It was not an option, nor did his son (your grandfather) have any opportunity to offer his opinion on the matter.

As riccardo mentioned, your only option to obtain Italian citizenship would be through the shortened naturalization process which requires that you reside legally in Italy for a period of three years. See http://www.conssanfrancisco.esteri.it/C ... escent.htm
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Re: GGF, GGM, GF born in Italy. GGF became US citizen. confu

Postby johnnyonthespot » 07 May 2010, 16:37

PS: I think we are assuming that your grandfather is deceased. If he is, in fact, living, you may have other options available.
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Re: GGF, GGM, GF born in Italy. GGF became US citizen. confu

Postby johnnyonthespot » 07 May 2010, 16:43

This is a better link for the Naturalization process http://www.ambwashingtondc.esteri.it/Am ... tadinanza/

Quoting from "How To Apply"

3. Naturalizzazione requirements include: 10 years of legal residence; sufficient income; absence of criminal record; renunciation of original citizenship (where foreseen). the number of years can be reduced to: 3 years of legal residence for descendents of former Italian citizens by birth, up to the 2nd degree, and for foreigners born in Italian national territory; 4 years of legal residence for citizens of European Community Member States; 5 years of legal residence for displaced persons or refugees, as well as for legal-age foreigners adopted by Italian citizens; 7 years of legal residence as the child of an Italian parent; no period of residence is required for foreigners who have served the State for a period of at least 5 years, even abroad. Application for naturalisation must be addressed to the President of the Republic (Presidente della Repubblica) and presented to the Prefecture in the Province of residence.


Your grandfather would count as "up to the 2nd degree" thus you qualify for the three year residency period.
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Re: GGF, GGM, GF born in Italy. GGF became US citizen. confu

Postby somedude » 07 May 2010, 17:39

johnnyonthespot wrote:
somedude wrote:Yes, but I thought that the reason you cannot get Italian citizenship if you are born after your ancestor naturalized was because of the renouncement of Italy/Italian citizenship on the naturalization document?

If so, my grandfather was too young to have renounced his Italian citizenship legally, and never renounced it later in life.


Do you have children of your own? If so, then you know that you speak for them in most matters, correct?

Well, it is the same principal at work here. Your great-grandfather effectively made the decision for his underage son. It was not an option, nor did his son (your grandfather) have any opportunity to offer his opinion on the matter.

As riccardo mentioned, your only option to obtain Italian citizenship would be through the shortened naturalization process which requires that you reside legally in Italy for a period of three years. See http://www.conssanfrancisco.esteri.it/C ... escent.htm


No, I don't have any children and yes my grandfather is dead.

I'll update this thread when (if) I hear back from the consulate(s) and see what their official position is on this.

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Re: GGF, GGM, GF born in Italy. GGF became US citizen. confu

Postby somedude » 07 May 2010, 22:07

Got a response from one of the many consulates I emailed:

I am sorry to inform you that you do not qualify. Infact the grandfather born in Italy is under the patria potesta’ of his father and follows his naturalization. So as a child of 7 he becomes a US citizen, way before he married and had children.


I am also not able to inherit from my grandmother because my father was born Dec 20, 1947, just 11 days shy of the cut off. :C

I'm going to start a new thread with more questions because my mother's family is from Argentina, but are originally Italian. New thread starting to see what sort of information I need from Argentina...

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Re: GGF, GGM, GF born in Italy. GGF became US citizen. confu

Postby DeFilippis78 » 07 May 2010, 22:10

Sorry about that. I know how it feels. My great grandfather naturalized 4 months before my grandfather was born. So close, but not close enough :( So I found another line as well to be eligible through. Good luck!

Alicia


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