Italian Birth certificate shows wrong name

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hollyolly7
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Italian Birth certificate shows wrong name

Postby hollyolly7 » 29 Jun 2010, 17:04

HELP!

After battling with the Comune di Ottone (Piacenza) for 3 years to try and find my GGF's birth certificate, they have informed me that the only person born that date in Bertone with parents names as Celestina and Bartolomeo was a female named GIOVANNA. My GGF name is GIOVANNI. What can I do??????
Are they able to change this if I send them some proof? On his death certificate his DOB isn't even listed. I just have his WWI draft card with his birth date. The other proof I have is the long form of his marriage certificate that was performed in this Comune and it states his parents names as the ones I wrote above. The town is 1 street so there is no doubt in my mind that it is him. Please please any help is greatly appreciated!

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Re: Italian Birth certificate shows wrong name

Postby johnnyonthespot » 29 Jun 2010, 19:09

I can't imagine that the comune will have any interest in his (US?) death certificate, however the marriage certificate should certainly get their attention.

Would you mind sharing some more details? What (who) is Bertone ("...the only person born that date in Bertone ...")? What was Giovanni's date of birth?

Any chance you can scan and post the marriage certificate?
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Re: Italian Birth certificate shows wrong name

Postby hollyolly7 » 29 Jun 2010, 19:25

Bertone is the town and Ottone is the Comune.
On his WWI draft it says the 19th of Sept 1875 and on his marriage certificate it says the following:

Molinelli Giovanni, di anni ventiquattro: contadino nato in Bertone, residente in Bertone figlio di Bartolomeo residente in vita a Bertone e di Molinelli Celestina.

So thanks to those two documents I finally figured out the specifics in order to get his birth certificate and now the comine says that the document is legible and that it is certainly Giovanna on the certificate...

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Re: Italian Birth certificate shows wrong name

Postby johnnyonthespot » 29 Jun 2010, 20:35

Interesting... Where did you get the marriage certificate from? Were they married in some other comune?

Are you aware that there exists another frazione named Bertone? It is in Comune di Goito, province of Mantova (in Lombardia).
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Re: Italian Birth certificate shows wrong name

Postby johnnyonthespot » 29 Jun 2010, 20:57

Okay, so I found what I assume is Giovanni's manifest, arrival date October 15, 1907, and in the last columns of the second sheet where his place of birth is listed, I see:

Image

which appears to me to be Bertone in Comune di Pavia (or Provincia di Pavia?) This is interesting because on the first sheet, it clearly says that Giovanni left behind his wife, Giovanna, in "Bertone di Ottone".

Coincidence perhaps? That Giovanni was born in one frazione named Bertone and then resided in an entirely different frazione of the same name?
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Re: Italian Birth certificate shows wrong name

Postby johnnyonthespot » 29 Jun 2010, 23:26

Holly,

Still not certain about just where/which Bertone you should be looking for, but check out this thread: http://italiangenealogy.com/Forums/view ... 25795.html
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Re: Italian Birth certificate shows wrong name

Postby hollyolly7 » 30 Jun 2010, 10:27

Wow. I've seen that passenger list before and thought that Pavia was just a mistake and that they misunderstood what he said when they wrote it down. I can't seem to find in on google map, though. Do you have a link to this?

The marriage certificate is from Ottone performed in Ottone as well. Now I'm wondering if this is even their marriage..the people born in Bertone were all Molinelli's this I knew, which doesn't make my search much easier.

Thanks for all your help I really appreciate it!

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Re: Italian Birth certificate shows wrong name

Postby johnnyonthespot » 30 Jun 2010, 10:55

We need one of the Italian researchers to help out with this one.

Currently, I can find only two Bertone's in Italy; both are frazioni, one of Ottone, province of Piacenza, and the other belonging to Goito, province of Mantova. Center-to-center, the two are about 110 miles apart.

If a couple of manifests say Bertone in Pavia, it does't seem like a mistake to me, keeping in mind that not all manifests have serarate columns for place of birth (most show only place of last residence). That leaves the option that there once existed a frazione named Bertone in the comune of Pavia - or more likely - a comune named Bertone in the province of Pavia. Unfortunately, I cannot find a single reference to either place.

The current Italian telephone directory shows 383 Molinelli's spread throughout the region (just 17 of whom are in Ottone), so that doesn't help narrow things down very well... http://www.paginebianche.it/execute.cgi ... btt=1&om=0 and http://www.gens.labo.net/en/cognomi/genera.html
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Re: Italian Birth certificate shows wrong name

Postby hollyolly7 » 30 Jun 2010, 11:07

The only Bertone I found in Goito was "Parco delle Bertone" a local park. Where's the one you found?

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Re: Italian Birth certificate shows wrong name

Postby johnnyonthespot » 30 Jun 2010, 12:06

hollyolly7 wrote:The only Bertone I found in Goito was "Parco delle Bertone" a local park. Where's the one you found?


In the Italian telephone directory, search for surname Molinelli and place Bertone. You get an error page asking which of two Bertone's you want to search: http://www.paginebianche.it/execute.cgi ... dv=bertone

Hey, it was the best I could do. :)
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Re: Italian Birth certificate shows wrong name

Postby johnnyonthespot » 30 Jun 2010, 13:50

Holly,

I don't know what to say...

The Italian telephone directory shows four Molinelli's in Comune di Pavia and 13 more spread throughout the province of Pavia. http://www.paginebianche.it/execute.cgi ... dv=pv&l=en

Perhaps you should write to Comune di Pavia and see if they come up with anything?

Ufficio dello Stato Civile
Comune di Pavia
P.zza Municipio, 2
27100 Pavia PV
ITALY

Email: statocivile@comune.pv.it (remove the spaces)
Website: http://www.comune.pv.it/on/Home.html
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Re: Italian Birth certificate shows wrong name

Postby suanj » 30 Jun 2010, 14:07

Ottone town was, from 1859 in Pavia province;
from 1923 Ottone becoming a Commune of Piacenza province;
Giovanni joining at Edoardo Molinelli brother:
Name: Eduardo Molinelli
Birth: 12 Feb 1873
Death: Nov 1962
Civil: New York

hoping helpful,
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ITALIAN ORIGIN SEARCH

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Re: Italian Birth certificate shows wrong name

Postby johnnyonthespot » 30 Jun 2010, 21:04

So, here we are, back at the beginning...
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Re: Italian Birth certificate shows wrong name

Postby Seraphina » 01 Jul 2010, 10:32

Hi Holly,

I realise you have been trying for 3 years to get the Registrar at the comune to change the name on the birth certificate. However, did you address your request to the Sindaco?

If you didn't do that, it might be worth writing to him direct with your request.
It'll give it "more clout" at the comune office if he passes on your request to them.

In the meantime, if you haven't already seen these photos, here is a link to photos of the areas around Bertone / Ottone.

Panoramio.

Good luck.

Seraphina

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Re: Italian Birth certificate shows wrong name

Postby hollyolly7 » 01 Jul 2010, 12:56

Thank you everybody for your help!

Seraphina--I've been writing back and forth to the comune because in the beginning I didn't know my GGF's birthdate or even the exact year. Just recently, through things that I've found on ancestry.com I was able to get his birthdate.

I will send a copy of my GGF's WWI draft that provides his birth date, along with a copy of the marriage certificate the comune gave me with his place of birth and names of his parents. When birth's occured in Bertone a member of the family had to make a trek to Ottone to get file for the BC so the child was usually never brought with them, and also it's possible that although my GGF could read and write, maybe his father couldn't and that could explain the wrong name and sex of baby.

Thanks again,
Holly


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