Unsure of what to do next..

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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shaunbehr
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Unsure of what to do next..

Postby shaunbehr » 16 Jul 2010, 13:49

I have been able to locate much information on my GGF, through which it appears I would be eligible for Italian dual citizenship since my GM was born before he was naturalized.

I have located his passport, ship manifest, application to become a citizen of US, certificate of naturalization, social security number app and death cert.

His place of birth is listed as Buenos Aires, Argentina (San Isidro). His residence was Ortona, Italy before he immigrated to US.

I don't really know what to do next. How can I find out if he had any Italian citizenship to pass on? Were his parents temporarily in Argentina? Did they live there? Which country were they citizens of? Does being born in Argentina mean he is automatically an Argentinian citizen, even if parents were Italian?

I am sort of stumped. Here is some info in case anyone would like to provide some expertise. My GGF was Vincenzo Sarchese (Vincente Sarckese on certificate of citizenship). Born 4/22/07 to parents Giacamo and Louisa Sarckese.

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johnnyonthespot
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Re: Unsure of what to do next..

Postby johnnyonthespot » 16 Jul 2010, 13:53

A quick, but very important, question: was your father or mother (your grandmother's child) born on or after January 1, 1948?

Prior to that date, Italian citizenship was passed only by the father. If your mother/father was born before January 1, 1948, she/he could not inherit Italian citizenship from your grandmother.
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Re: Unsure of what to do next..

Postby shaunbehr » 16 Jul 2010, 23:20

Yes, dad was born in 1950.

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Re: Unsure of what to do next..

Postby johnnyonthespot » 16 Jul 2010, 23:32

shaunbehr wrote:Yes, dad was born in 1950.


Phew! :)


>> I am sort of stumped. Here is some info in case anyone would like to provide some expertise. My GGF was Vincenzo Sarchese (Vincente Sarckese on certificate of citizenship). Born 4/22/07 to parents Giacamo and Louisa Sarckese.

So, do you have any other naturalization documents besides the certificate? And, is that what you have - the actual US Certificate of Naturalization?

If so, I would consider placing an order with USCIS for the complete file. You can go to http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/ ... 18190aRCRD and follow the instructions to make a "Records Request" - you can skip the Index Search because the certificate number is the "C File" number (just put a "C" in front of the seven digit certificate number).

His Petition for Naturalization and associated Oath of Allegiance will have him swearing to renounce his previous citizenship and allegiance to the ruler of his former country. If that says Italy, then we have a good sign that he was indeed Italian at the time. See what I mean?
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Re: Unsure of what to do next..

Postby shaunbehr » 18 Jul 2010, 11:35

Unfortunately, the petition and oath reference "the argentine republic".

So realistically, am I at a dead end? I kind of held out hope because he lived in Ortona, Italy and immigrated from there, and so much of the Sarchese family came from there/still live there. I was thinking if I could locate his parents birth certificates (though I have absolutely no idea where there were born or anything much at all about them) or find out about their citizenship, I might have a chance still.

My GM thought her dad was born in Argentina while her grandparents were there temporarily for work. If they were Italian, maybe he would have both Italian and Argentine citizenship? I really just don't know. There are a lot of possibilities, but I don't know how to do the next steps of research. Maybe I shouldn't even bother since his paperwork shows Argentine as nationality?

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Re: Unsure of what to do next..

Postby johnnyonthespot » 18 Jul 2010, 12:22

shaunbehr wrote:Unfortunately, the petition and oath reference "the argentine republic".

So realistically, am I at a dead end? I kind of held out hope because he lived in Ortona, Italy and immigrated from there, and so much of the Sarchese family came from there/still live there. I was thinking if I could locate his parents birth certificates (though I have absolutely no idea where there were born or anything much at all about them) or find out about their citizenship, I might have a chance still.

My GM thought her dad was born in Argentina while her grandparents were there temporarily for work. If they were Italian, maybe he would have both Italian and Argentine citizenship? I really just don't know. There are a lot of possibilities, but I don't know how to do the next steps of research. Maybe I shouldn't even bother since his paperwork shows Argentine as nationality?


I don't feel qualified to give you an absolute answer and certainly don't want to quash your hopes based on uninformed guesses.

I guess the question on the table is, is it possible that your great-grandfather was born a dual Argentine/Italian citizen. I can say with certainty that dual US/Italian would not have been an option at that time due to, I believe, both US and Italian law. I am guessing when I say that Italian law would have precluded dual Argentine/Italian citizenship as well.

It does sound as though you have hit a dead end...
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Re: Unsure of what to do next..

Postby shaunbehr » 18 Jul 2010, 17:08

Do you know, or have an idea where I may be able to research, if two Italian parents gave birth to a child in Argentina in 1907, would the child be an Argentinian citizen or an Italian citizen?

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Re: Unsure of what to do next..

Postby johnnyonthespot » 19 Jul 2010, 10:26

shaunbehr wrote:Do you know, or have an idea where I may be able to research, if two Italian parents gave birth to a child in Argentina in 1907, would the child be an Argentinian citizen or an Italian citizen?


I have given this subject more thought and I am not so certain that this is a dead end. I don't see where the situation is so different than for an ancestor who was born in the US and believed himself to be solely of US citizenship.

So this comes back to the need to learn exactly who your "Italian" ancestors were and what comune they came from origianlly. Perhaps a genealogy forum specializing in Argentina might help point you to record sources, especially regarding Italian immigrants.

Here are a few leads:

http://genforum.genealogy.com/argentina/

https://wiki.familysearch.org/en/Argentina_Genealogy

http://www.mygenealogist.com/argentina-genealogy.htm
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