Proof of naturalization - these 3 docs enough?

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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rgaetano
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Proof of naturalization - these 3 docs enough?

Postby rgaetano » 21 Jul 2010, 03:34

I have obtained certified copies from a county clerk's office in NYS of the following documents for my GGF's naturalizations.....

1. declaration of intention
2. petition for naturalization
3. citizenship petition granted

I just want to check to make sure I am not missing a naturalization document, and that these are the only three I will need. Also, these only need to be apostilled, and not translated, correct?

grazie

As a side story....
Thinking that my GGF never naturalized, I initially requested a search from USCIS to start the "no records" process. During that time I planned to obtain as many "negative proofs" as I could to show the consulate that he never naturalized. So first I went to NARA in NYC to get certified copies of the 1920 and 1930 census showing that his status was "alien" after all his children (and most importantly my GF) were born. The NARA people were really nice and helpful. The older staff seemed familiar with dual citizenship people and helpful about it. Despite finding out that my GGF's NYS county never sent naturalization records to the state during his time (so even if he did naturalize, they would have no record of it) they were willing to write me a letter of no records (after I submitted a paper request). They even followed up a few days after by phone to confirm that they would be sending me this letter.

As I continued this process, I figured my next step was to go to all the local courts and get similar letters of negative proof. I first went to the county clerk where my GGF lived and to my surprise, they were there! Proof of naturalization. They were extremely helpful and I was able to obtain all the 3 documents mentioned above with certification for only $20, which I think is a lot cheaper, and much much faster than going through USCIS.

so my advice is be prepared to be surprised about naturalization, and start with local courts first if you can, as opposed to USCIS.

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Re: Proof of naturalization - these 3 docs enough?

Postby johnnyonthespot » 21 Jul 2010, 12:07

This is exactly why the consulates now demand so many layers of proof in the case of non-naturalization. Apparently there have been at least a few cases where citizenship was granted only to later learn that it should not have been because the ancestor did naturalize prior to the birth of next-in-lineage child.

When I applied in New York in mid-2008, I submitted exactly the documents you have (" citizenship petition granted" - I presume you mean the signed Oath of Allegiance), issued by the Westchester County Archives.

It is my understanding that several consulates (Miami?) are now demanding to see a copy of the actual Certificate of Naturalization. Let me say first that I do not interpret Miami's website as such, but that is for another day.

The only place you can obtain a copy of the Certificate of Naturalization is USCIS. Go back to their site and order a "Records Request" (skip the Index Search; you don't need it). Check the box which says you have a "C File" number and then in the field for it place the letter "C" followed by the seven digit certificate number which you will find on the Oath of Allegiance section of the Petition.

PS: Naturalization docs require neither translation nor apostille. They are strictly for the use of the consulate and will not be forwarded to Italy.
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Re: Proof of naturalization - these 3 docs enough?

Postby rgaetano » 21 Jul 2010, 15:29

very true, I know understand why they ask for so much to prove no naturalization. Luckily for me, he naturalized so late that it doesn't change my citizenship status. and that is good to hear that they require no apostille.

Included in my copy of the "petition" is a "certificate of loyalty" but there are only 2 sets of 4 digit numbers listed (a court, and a petition number).

For my "petition granted" copy there are two pages. The first page is a list of all the petitioners who were granted citizenship that day from the court, and the second is a stub labeled Form N-550, which includes a 7 digit number at the top, and has his name, address, age, date of admission, the court name, the petition no, alien reg no and Ctf Identification no.

What do you make of this stub? Should I still request an order through USCIS?

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Re: Proof of naturalization - these 3 docs enough?

Postby rgaetano » 21 Jul 2010, 15:31

very true, I know understand why they ask for so much to prove no naturalization. Luckily for me, he naturalized so late that it doesn't change my citizenship status. and that is good to hear that they require no apostille.

Included in my copy of the "petition" is a "certificate of loyalty" but there are only 2 sets of 4 digit numbers listed (a court, and a petition number).

For my "petition granted" copy there are two pages. The first page is a list of all the petitioners who were granted citizenship that day from the court, and the second is a stub labeled Form N-550, which includes a 7 digit number at the top, and has his name, address, age, date of admission, the court name, the petition no, alien reg no and Ctf Identification no.

What do you make of this stub? Should I still request an order through USCIS?

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Re: Proof of naturalization - these 3 docs enough?

Postby johnnyonthespot » 21 Jul 2010, 15:50

rgaetano wrote:Included in my copy of the "petition" is a "certificate of loyalty" but there are only 2 sets of 4 digit numbers listed (a court, and a petition number).


What year is this? Early naturalization docs are quite different from the later ones I am mostly familiar with (1920 onwards).

If pre-1906 (September-something, if I recall correctly), then USCIS won't have the records at all. I think you can comfortably not worry about the actual certificate unless you are applying in Miami.
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Re: Proof of naturalization - these 3 docs enough?

Postby rgaetano » 21 Jul 2010, 16:34

1940-1944, from declaration of intent to naturalization. Since I will be applying in NY, I'm thinking I will not worry about it....Unless someone who has gone through NY thinks otherwise?

On the other hand, I am kind of curious to obtain all possible documents for him regardless of what is required (such as alien registration documents, the actual certificate of naturalization, etc). Should there be a photo with the USCIS naturalization file for this time period? If so I would definitely want to order it.

One more question- are all documents ordered from USCIS automatically certified?

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Re: Proof of naturalization - these 3 docs enough?

Postby johnnyonthespot » 21 Jul 2010, 16:50

rgaetano wrote:1940-1944, from declaration of intent to naturalization.

...

One more question- are all documents ordered from USCIS automatically certified?


Really? Interesting; I have documents from that same period but seem quite different. I wonder if you were given the backside of the Petition for Citizenship form... On documents I have from the 30's and 40's, the top half is the "Affadavit of Witnesses" and the lower half is the "Oath of Allegiance". Naturalization is complete when the Oath section is completed, dated, signed by the applicant and the court oficer, and the certificate number issued and written in the allocated space.


I don't believe USCIS routinely certifies documents. See the bottom of this page: http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/ ... 18190aRCRD
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Re: Proof of naturalization - these 3 docs enough?

Postby johnnyonthespot » 21 Jul 2010, 17:00

See "Naturalization Certificate Stubs" in this Google Books preview: http://books.google.com/books?id=Jw3kn_ ... nt&f=false
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Re: Proof of naturalization - these 3 docs enough?

Postby rgaetano » 21 Jul 2010, 17:31

good find in google books, thanks.

I'm sorry for the confusion, I overlooked the "Oath of Allegiance" - that is there, in the same place as yours, below the affidavit of witnesses, as part of the petition form. But it seems strange that if that is when naturalization is complete, that it was included with the "petition papers" rather than the "granted papers"

In addition to this, on a separate page, is a "Certificate of Loyalty." This document is labeled in the upper left hand corner Form N-438. It is pretty much says "....after investigating fully establishing their loyalty, certify as persons loyal to the United States..." etc. I got the impression from the archivist at the county clerk that he had never seen one of these before.

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Re: Proof of naturalization - these 3 docs enough?

Postby johnnyonthespot » 21 Jul 2010, 17:51

The Petition for Naturalization is the final step in the process. The Oath of Allegiance is actually printed on the back side of the Petition form. When the petition was granted, the final step was for the applicant to recite the oath of allegiance and then all the parties filled out and signed that last section of the form.
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Re: Proof of naturalization - these 3 docs enough?

Postby rgaetano » 21 Jul 2010, 21:00

thanks carmine for all the input! any idea if the C-file from this time period should have a photo?

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Re: Proof of naturalization - these 3 docs enough?

Postby sforza » 24 Jul 2010, 03:11

johnnyonthespot wrote:
PS: Naturalization docs require neither translation nor apostille. They are strictly for the use of the consulate and will not be forwarded to Italy.


Does this apply to "No records" letters as well?

BTW, I am working on my no-records letters, and had a mixed response from NARA. I ordered online, and mid-atlantic office conducted my PA search. They sent a proper "no records" letter. The requests for my GGF's NJ address must have been processed by a different NARA office - I simply received an email saying that I did not want actual records, but a search, and that I should contact the NY NARA office. Since I used the online form, both requests were identical. Why the different replies? What did I do wrong?

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Re: Proof of naturalization - these 3 docs enough?

Postby rgaetano » 24 Jul 2010, 04:14

Your best bet with ny NARA is to call them or go in person if you can. I found the online forms were confusing if you had an exception to the request. If you go in person or call them they will be helpful about getting your no records letter.

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Re: Proof of naturalization - these 3 docs enough?

Postby ncaprio » 24 Jul 2010, 04:51

Dumb question ... but where can you go to the NARA office? Can you make an appointment?

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Re: Proof of naturalization - these 3 docs enough?

Postby rgaetano » 24 Jul 2010, 12:02

Appointments are not necessary, you just walk in. You can call first and they will be able to tell you if they have the record you are looking for.


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