Had my meeting in Boston

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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bmilazzo
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Had my meeting in Boston

Postby bmilazzo » 24 Jul 2010, 11:04

I made an appointment two months ago. Arrived and I wasn't on the schedule. He (consulate employee) met with me anyway. Some of my gf's birth dates were wrong by year and month but that didn't seem to be a problem. My certified marriage certificate didn't have enough information so he suggested i get a certified copy of our application.
He was most interested in my gf's alien status which can be the most difficult to prove. It is important to have census information. Alien card and WWI, and WWII draft and alien registration cards. Ship manifest information. Departure and arrival information and a manifest card if possible.
It is also important to show that you have searched under any possible misspellings of the last and first name.
My best guess at how this works is that the consulate person decides whether or not based on how much paperwork you have and how organized and complete it is, this will determine if he is willing to "present" it to authorities in Italy.

I now need access to all the 1930 census records not just what is available online for free (these ae only partial records). I need copies of any ship manifest cards and alien registration cards. Any suggestions?

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Re: Had my meeting in Boston

Postby bmilazzo » 24 Jul 2010, 11:11

If you are applying in Boston I believe that the contact person (there appears to be only one) will be on vacation until October.

Make a photocopy set of all your documents to leave with the Consulate. There is a Staples nearby if you don't do this.

This is a fluid process, one that isn't completely transparent so expect the unexpected.

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Re: Had my meeting in Boston

Postby sforza » 25 Jul 2010, 02:45

I don't know about the immigration records, but you can get a certified copy of the census form through the online NARA system. You will need some info from the page (the page number and another number), so I would go up on ancestry.com and download a copy of your GF's census page so you can use it as a reference when you submit your request to NARA. It costs $40.

It appears I will have to do the same, as my GGF was never naturalized - he was listed as alien on all three censuses that I have access to. I've ordered the censuses, but haven't looked into the immigration records yet.

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Re: Had my meeting in Boston

Postby Donald66 » 25 Jul 2010, 03:40

Is a certified copy of the Census report needed? We just printed a copy from the website and submitted that to the New York Consulate. The interviewer checked for the "AL" status and kept on going......

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Re: Had my meeting in Boston

Postby sforza » 25 Jul 2010, 03:47

I was advised on this forum that a certified copy was needed. Did you have to get yours translated?
I also just went up on NARA and ordered a certified copy of the ship manifest. That could also be downloaded from sites like ancestry.

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Re: Had my meeting in Boston

Postby Donald66 » 25 Jul 2010, 03:55

No, we just handed the sheet to the interviewer. He grabbed his handheld magnifier & searched for the "AL" status. Once he found it, he just went on to the next document.

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Re: Had my meeting in Boston

Postby johnnyonthespot » 25 Jul 2010, 10:08

Most consulates demand certified copies of censuses (after all, they could be easily faked); translations/apostilles are not (because they are for the use of the consulate and not sent to Italy - if you were planning to actually apply in Italy, that would be a different matter). As noted, the Natioanl Archives is the source for these documents; be sure to request a "certified" copy or you will be right back where you started from.

It can be possilbe to obtain census data for years beyond 1930 under certain circumstances. See http://www.census.gov/genealogy/www/dat ... index.html

As a side note, the 1940 census will be released to the public in the year 2012.
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Re: Had my meeting in Boston

Postby bmilazzo » 25 Jul 2010, 11:04

I was not asked for nor was a demand made for a certified copy of the census. Both certified and downloaded from the net copies can be forged. He looked at my downloaded census info some of which was poor and would have been poor in a certified copy. The advantage of downloading, depending on which site you download from, is that you can magnify a specific area. This helps a great deal. He accepted all of this. None of the additional items he asked me to get require certification.


NATURALIZATION RECORDS BEFORE 1906:

Before September 27, 1906, an alien could seek citizenship through any
federal, state, or local court. To obtain copies of naturalization
records before this date, you must know the court in which a person was
naturalized.

State or Local Court:
1. Contact the court directly to obtain information about how to use
its records.
2. Your local librarian should be able to help you find the right
court.

Federal Court:
1. Naturalization records in federal courts may still be in the custody
of the the U.S. District Court in which the proceedings took place.
2. Or the records may have been transferred to one of the regional
branches of the National Archives.
3. The easiest way to order naturalization records from NARA's regional
facilities is to use OrderOnline:
www.archives.gov/resea...nline.html . The cost is
fifteen dollars ($15). Certification is an extra fifteen dollars ($15).

If you have additional questions, you can also contact the appropriate
regional facility of the National Archives. A listing of NARA's regional
locations and information about their holdings may be found at:
www.archives.gov/facilities

For more information regarding Naturalization (Citizenship) Records
from before 1906 found within NARA, please see:
www.archives.gov/resea...cords.html


NATURALIZATION RECORDS AFTER 1906:
US Citizenship and Immigration Service (USCIS)

1. After September 26, 1906, the US Citizenship and Immigration Service
(USCIS) collected a copy of each certificate of Naturalization
issued, called certificate or "C" files.
2. For naturalizations after 1906, you should contact USCIS.
3. See uscis.gov/graphics/abo...natrec.htm
4. Or call the USCIC customer service number (1-800-375-5283). USCIS
will charge a fee to complete your request.

A note relating to a WWI index:
The National Archives does have an index to naturalization records for
members of the US Armed Forces during World War I. For information, see
uscis.gov/graphics/abo...winatz.htm

OTHER INFORMATION:

Hiring a Researcher:
If you are interested in hiring an independent researcher to do on-site
research for you at the National Archives, see www.
archives.gov/research_room/independent_researchers/hire_a_researcher.html

The following general book may be helpful:
Schaefer, Christina K., Guide to Naturalization Records of the United
States. Baltimore, MD: Genealogical Pub. Co., 1997.


ITALIAN DUAL CITIZENSHIP/ NO RECORD OF NATURALIZATION FOUND


You must exhaust the sources which might contain a record of
naturalization. Records of naturalization which took place after
September 27, 1906, were done in duplicate; one copy can be found in the
records of the court in which the naturalization proceedings took place,
and a second copy was sent to the central office of the Immigration and
Naturalization Service (INS). Records of naturalization in Federal
courts are usually among the Records of the U.S. District Court in which
the proceedings took place. These records may still be in the custody of
the court, or they may have been transferred to one of the regional
branches of the National Archives (addresses enclosed) as part of the
Records of the U.S. District and Other Courts of the United States
(Record Group 21). You must write to the appropriate regional archives
to have a search conducted in their records and notify you in writing
that either a record was found or not found.

In addition you must apply to the INS for its copy. Requests should be
made with a local INS office, now known as the U.S. Citizenship and
Immigration Services (USCIS). Enclosed is a form G-639 for requesting
copies of documents from the USCIS. [or] To download a G-639, Freedom
of Information/Privacy Act Request, for requesting copies of documents
from the USCIS, please click on: www.uscis.gov/g-639 .

If the USCIS does not have a record of the naturalization, and the
appropriate National Archives Regional facility does not have a record
in the court records, and you have written evidence of all of the above,
then we can provide a letter to that effect. The Italian government has
honored that letter in the past. You must also provide copies of
written confirmation that a search was conducted by both the USCIS and
by the National Archives region and that no record of naturalization was
found. If you cannot provide written proof, then we cannot assist you.

When you have receive the correct documentation please mail the letters
to the National Archives and Records Administration, NWCT1R, Washington,
DC 20408.

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Re: Had my meeting in Boston

Postby johnnyonthespot » 25 Jul 2010, 12:18

bmilazzo wrote:My best guess at how this works is that the consulate person decides whether or not based on how much paperwork you have and how organized and complete it is, this will determine if he is willing to "present" it to authorities in Italy.


It has been well documented that the decision in jus sanguinis cases is made entirely by the consulate's resident stato civile officer. If he/she approves your case, the relavant documents are forwarded to your ancestral comune for registration and the consulate mails a letter to the applicant advising him/her of the event. See mid-2008 example below.

Jus matrimonio cases (citizenship by marriage) on the other hand are decided in Rome; the consulate's function being to ensure that everything is in order before forwarding the package on to Italy.

FWIW, my personal experience in New York was that on my first visit I was told this is good, this is good, you need to fix this, this is good,etc. On my second visit, two of the previously approved documents were no longer acceptable and the translations which during the first visit had been given a green light were also suddenly "not good enough." You may yet be asked for certified copies of those censuses... :?

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Re: Had my meeting in Boston

Postby bmilazzo » 25 Jul 2010, 13:51

I've spent hours reading about applicant's experiences in other cities. NYC and San Francisco are the hardest. LA too. This process is VERY subjective so I expect to be asked for more info although I don't believe any documents will require certification. But I could be wrong. What did come out of my meeting was the fact that certified documents are also suspect. One of my certified death certificates had my gf born nine years after he died! This is why I had three death certificates from three vital records offices in NY. The other two had differences as well but they were not a problem.
Except for the missing 1930 census data (I had some but not all) it was obvious to the Italian representative that I had done my homework. I only started doing this a little over four months ago. Considering that he looked tired and was leaving for a two month vacation I believe I'm in good shape. But who knows, Murphy's law could prevail.
NY state and NYC in particular are very problematic. Politics plays a big part.

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Re: Had my meeting in Boston

Postby johnnyonthespot » 25 Jul 2010, 14:35

Here's the thing about death certificates: they are totally useless. :!:

The data on them comes from a (presumably) grieving next-of-kin, often an eldest child as the spouse, if living, is too distraught. The only reliable information on a US death certificate is the date, place, and cause of death. Everything else should be taken with a grain of salt.

Why does the consulate even ask for death certificates, since they obviously have nothing to do with whether or not a bloodline exists? The consensus is that the death certificate serves only to prove that the person is not alive and thus not able to speak for himself in regards to (using New York as an example) Form 3 - Declaration of Living Italian Ascendant vs Form 4 - Delaration of Deceased Italian Ascendant.

For very old ascendants - those born more than 125 years ago, I will bet a donut that most consulates would give a pass on a missing death certificate.

The problem with non-naturalization in particular is that it is extremely difficult to prove a negative. The consulates have seen numerous examples of a persons who supposedly did not naturalize only to have a record turn up out of the blue. There are a few people on this board (member Mulé for one) who have been through the wringer over and over in demands for multiple layers of proof of non-naturalization.

Also, since 2007, the Ministry of the Interior has put pressure on all civil status officers to pay particular attention to the problem of fraudulent data. See http://www.servizidemografici.interno.i ... MENTO=1083 which translates roughly as:

SUBJECT: Forgery of documents in the procedures for recognition of Italian citizenship jure sanguinis.

The Ministry of Foreign Affairs has highlighted issues relating to the frequent cases of recognition of Italian citizenship obtained by submitting
false or counterfeit certificates.

The writer of this Directorate has already issued Circular No 26 of 10 June 2007 which refers the attention of officers of civil status in be extremely careful in carrying out the duties of the counter and the phenomenon of preventing forgery of documents under the procedures concerning citizenship.

Considered both emphasized the need for carrying more and more careful checks on the documents submitted in support of recognition practice Italian citizenship.

In those circumstances are asked Your Excellency wanted to re-sensitize Mayors on the subject and want to ensure exact fulfillment of the above.
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Re: Had my meeting in Boston

Postby bmilazzo » 25 Jul 2010, 14:59

This makes sense based on my expereience: every vital record document must be Apostilled I was told.

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Re: Had my meeting in Boston

Postby sforza » 25 Jul 2010, 15:18

Do "No records" letters and/or certifications need to be Apostilled?

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Re: Had my meeting in Boston

Postby bmilazzo » 25 Jul 2010, 15:33

Short answer: No. NARA and INS will not issue a "certified" letter similar to an Apostille. However, INS will send a statement "certifying" that they researched under the names you gave them and found something or found nothing.

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Re: Had my meeting in Boston

Postby sforza » 25 Jul 2010, 16:30

johnnyonthespot wrote:Here's the thing about death certificates: they are totally useless. :!:

The data on them comes from a (presumably) grieving next-of-kin, often an eldest child as the spouse, if living, is too distraught. The only reliable information on a US death certificate is the date, place, and cause of death. Everything else should be taken with a grain of salt.


Case in point: The name of my grandfather on his American birth certificate is "Carmen Jacques Vitale." His social security death record is "Jack Vitale." In addition, in two of three censuses, and on a ship manifest during a trip to Italy he took early in his childhood, he is "Carmelo." On the third census he is "Carmine." I'm looking forward to seeing what's on his NJ death certificate (assuming it's not what's on his social security record). I'm sure the Consulate is going to love this.

To this point I've seen numerous posts that refer to the legal process of amending vital records. Does this apply to the US census too, or just official birth/death/naturalization records? And do you think I'll have to seek a legal change to my grandfather's death certificate if the name is different from that on the birth certificate? (Indeed, the one name he was never referred to in life was that which appeared on his birth certificate!)


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