no certification allowed

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MST995
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no certification allowed

Postby MST995 » 30 Jul 2010, 15:16

The county that my great grandfather naturalized in refuses to issue certified copies of the actal naturalization record. I'm not sure what to do, the clerk is telling me that plain and simply it's illegal for her to certify it. NARA doesn't have it because he didn't naturalize in a federal court so my only option is to get it from these people. How can NARA issue certified copies but not the county? Has anyone else had this issue?

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Re: no certification allowed

Postby johnnyonthespot » 30 Jul 2010, 15:32

Which state/county is this?

When I obtained naturalization documents from the Westchester County Archives (New York), the archivist sent the documents directly to the county clerk's office and then the county clerk certified that they were copies of the official records and forwarded them to me.

Perhaps you need to follow a similar procedure, such that the county clerk can be guaranteed that the documents she is certifying actually came from the claimed source.
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Re: no certification allowed

Postby MST995 » 30 Jul 2010, 15:52

Thanks, Carmine, he naturalized in Orange County new york. The Orange County Clerk has the records, as they are archived there, but refuses to certify them. I am unsure of how to proceed. would the G-639 form help me here, or is that only for items that are in the National Archives? because I already confirmed with NARA that they don't have the records. Thanks again!

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Re: no certification allowed

Postby johnnyonthespot » 30 Jul 2010, 16:35

I don't know why he/she refuses to certify them; you are not asking them to certify the content of the documents, just that they came from the official records of the county archives.

Perhaps you can have the Westchester County clerk call and explain the process. :)

Okay, that probably won't work...

So, if the naturalization took place after September (?), 1906, USCIS will have the records. It will take longer to get them and probably cost a bit more, but you gotta do what you gotta do.

Start here http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/ ... 18190aRCRD and click the "Make a Genealogy Request" link on the right side of the page, then the "Order Online Now" or "Make a Genealogy Request by Postal Mail" link.

If you already have a copy of the county archive docs, you can skip the "Index Search Request" and go directly to the "Record Request without Request Case ID" form. You will find the file numbers you need on the docs you already have. Note in particular that the "C File Number" is nothing more than the seven digit naturalization certificate number written in the Oath of Allegiance form with a letter "C" placed in front of it.
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MST995
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Re: no certification allowed

Postby MST995 » 30 Jul 2010, 17:04

Thanks, but take a look at this. It says that the copy would not be certified. But I did notice something interesting on the Italian Consulate website in NY... call me crazy but I think only the PETITION for naturalization has to be certified. If you look at the ny Italian consulate website, it states that they require "YOUR PATERNAL OR MATERNAL GREAT GRANDFATHERS’ CERTIFICATE OF
NATURALIZATION AND PETITION FOR NATURALIZATION" and under general requirements it states "U.S. birth/marriage/death records must bear an Apostille of the Secretary of State of the State where the document was issued. Petition for naturalization and/or “no recordâ€

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Re: no certification allowed

Postby kontessa » 30 Jul 2010, 18:52

What about having the county clerk type up a certified cover letter, attached to the naturalization documents, that describes what they are (true copies of records that they have on file), where they are maintained, who is issuing them, blah, blah, blah, etc.. As long as the letter is certified and attached to the whole packet, you can then have a NYS apostille attached. You would have to do something similar with nat'l docs from USCIS, too, so you might as well do it with a local county as it will be quicker.

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Re: no certification allowed

Postby jwazevedo » 31 Jul 2010, 04:21

It's my understanding that the Italian Embassy understands that USCIS naturalization records don't come certified, but some consulates still have the "certified copy" language in their requirements. I don't know about the NY consulate. You could ask them. I requested the USCIS copy, and it was accepted by my consulate. Other threads in this forum have discussed ways to get the USCIS documents certified, and you could go that route. But I'd check with the consulate first to see if it's even necessary.

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Re: no certification allowed

Postby jennabet » 31 Jul 2010, 22:01

The Philadelphia Consulate accepted my grand-father's naturalization papers without any special certification. I just presented the copies that were sent to me "as is" from the archives. As long as there is a "Certification" number on the document, there should not be any problem. This kind of document is "Federal" and would have the logo of "The United States of America". Only documents issued by the State (birth, marriage, etc.) would need an Apostille.

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Re: no certification allowed

Postby jennabet » 31 Jul 2010, 22:02

The Philadelphia Consulate accepted my grand-father's naturalization papers without any special certification. I just presented the copies that were sent to me "as is" from the archives. As long as there is a "Certification" number on the document, there should not be any problem. This kind of document is "Federal" and would have the logo of "The United States of America". Only documents issued by the State (birth, marriage, etc.) would need an Apostille.


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