Jure Sanguinis Question

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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Jure Sanguinis Question

Postby Pietrone » 31 Jul 2010, 15:16

Hello,

I am interested in acquiring Italian Citizenship through Jure Sanguinis, but it is a bit confusing. The cut off is one's Great Grandparents? Or would my Great-Great Grandparents work as well?

I was going to use my paternal great grandfather whose details are these: Biaggio Pietrone (also spelled Biagio Petrone) was born in Capistrello L'Aquila on 02/03/1890. According to family he ran away from home and was a stowaway to America at a young age. They also said he gained citizenship by joining the military during WWI. I have his Honorable Discharge paperwork from 1919 and the 1920 census says he was naturalized in 1912. He had my Grandfather in 1924. I also have Biaggio's Certificate of Citizenship (says at the top : To be given to the person naturalized) dated 1931.

So am I out of luck with this side of my family? My other links to Italy are all through great-great grandparents. Thank you!
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Re: Jure Sanguinis Question

Postby johnnyonthespot » 31 Jul 2010, 15:28

There is no generational cut-off, but there is a practical one. Modern Italy did not exist as a unified country until 1861. If your ancestor left, for example, Sicily, in the mid 1800's and died prior to 1861, then he was never "Italian" and thus could not pass on Italian citizenship to his children.

Other than that exception, you can go back as many generations as needed, keeping in mind that the problems with documentation often grow substantially with each added generation...

The problem which you do have is your statement that your GGF became a US citizen prior to your GF's birth. This - if true - would create an irrevocable break in the bloodline.

>> I also have Biaggio's Certificate of Citizenship (says at the top : To be given to the person naturalized) dated 1931.

This statement is of great interest. Can you give us more details? Can you scan the document and upload it so that we can have a look?

There is a discussion in this thread http://italiangenealogy.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=17142/ on how to upload images to this site.
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Re: Jure Sanguinis Question

Postby sforza » 31 Jul 2010, 15:31

If your ancestor is through your paternal line, I believe there is no limit on the number of generations.

However, if your GGGF is from your maternal line, more restrictive rules apply: this only can be used if you were born after January 1, 1948. I don't know the details of your situation, but it may be that it's easier for one of your parents, if applicable/possible to apply and then register you. See this website: http://www.italiandualcitizenship.com/
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Re: Jure Sanguinis Question

Postby johnnyonthespot » 31 Jul 2010, 15:43

The issue of maternal line is as follows:

Prior to January 1, 1948 (the implementation of Italy's post-war democratic constitution), Italian citizenship was passed only by the father. Whereas a woman born at any time inherited Italian citizenship from her father, she could not pass that citizenship onto her children who were born before 1/1/1948.

So, for example, if your lineage is as follows:

GGF -> GF -> M -> applicant

then it is imperative that applicant was born on or after 1/1/1948.

If instead,

GGF -> GM -> F -> Applicant

then assuming that father was born prior to 1/1/1948, the bloodline has been broken and citizenship is not possible for the father nor the proposed applicant.
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Re: Jure Sanguinis Question

Postby johnnyonthespot » 31 Jul 2010, 15:58

As a side note, there are no Pietrone's listed in the Italian telephone directory; this would lead me to believe that this spelling is incorrect.

There are nearly 2,000 Petrone's throughout Italy, none of whom are in Capistrello and only five in the entire province of L'Aquila. See http://www.paginebianche.it/execute.cgi ... rone&dv=aq
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Re: Jure Sanguinis Question

Postby Pietrone » 31 Jul 2010, 17:11

Jimmy, attached (I hope I did it right) is the Certificate of Citizenship. Thanks for all the replies. It has cleared a lot up.

Biaggio is my Father's Father's Father.

Other Italian born family lines I have are as follows (GGGParents being born in Italy and every generation thereafter being born in the US):

GGGM + GGGF - GGM - GF - F - Me
GGGM + GGGF - GGF - GM - F - Me
GGGM + GGGF - GGM - GM - F - Me
GGGF + GGGM - GGF - GF - M - Me

All my GGGparents were born between 1850-1890.

I'm hoping one of these lineages will prove fruitful, but as Jimmy said, I am sure the farther back I go the more complicated it will be to get documentation. Thanks again, for the help!
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Re: Jure Sanguinis Question

Postby johnnyonthespot » 31 Jul 2010, 17:15

Biaggio became a US citizen on March 2, 1931. Of this there is no doubt.

Since his son (your grandfather) was born in 1924, you are All Systems Go. :)
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Re: Jure Sanguinis Question

Postby Pietrone » 31 Jul 2010, 17:19

Yay!! This makes me so happy. Thanks for the help!
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Re: Jure Sanguinis Question

Postby johnnyonthespot » 31 Jul 2010, 17:43

I am happy I was able to help.

Regarding the issue of WWI and naturalization, many people believe that a foriegn citizen who served in the US military during WWI was automatically granted US citizenship. This is not correct.

What was granted was an expedited path to citizenship which, if the soldier chose to pursue it, would have reduced the paperwork burden and the time required to process his application (sometimes down to a single day).
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Re: Jure Sanguinis Question

Postby Pietrone » 20 Aug 2012, 00:56

:D Hi everyone,

I know this post was originally made quite some time ago, however I think I need your help again. I currently have obtained all of the documents needed to apply for citizenship, but I have run into some issues including date and name discrepancies that may be cause for concern. Also, I have found that many of the agencies tend to be less than helpful when I submit any questions regarding the issues. Below is an email chain between me and the Italian Consulate in Miami. The text underlined in bold are the vague and barely useful responses from the Citizenship office:


On Jul 27, 2011, at 3:06 PM, Consolato Generale Miami wrote:



On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 2:37 PM, Rosemary Love <rosemary.love@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hello,
I am currently gathering vital records in order to apply for Italian Citizenship through jure sanguinis. I am applying through my great-grandfathers lineage and I had some questions regarding a few discrepancies I have found in names and dates. (discrepancies are bolded for your convenience)

G-Grandfather: I received this form in response to my request for a birth certificate. Will this suffice for the jure sanguinis process?

It was a large document so I could only scan half. The other half has the official seal of Capistrello. Note that his name is spelled Biagio Petroni and I believe this says he was born in May of 1891? NO, 19 MAY 1892

On his Marriage Certificate from 1919 he writes his name as Biaggio Petrone (but signs it as (Biaggio Pietrone)

On his naturalization paperwork from 1931 he goes as Biaggio Petrone and states he was born February 3, 1891 (he signs as Biaggio Petrone) WRONG DATE. THIS IS A PROBLEM AND SHOULD BE AMENDED OR HAVE SOMEBODY OFFICIALLY STATING THAT IT IS THE SAME PERSON THAT WAS BORN IN...ON...IN ITALY

His Death Certificate from 1975 lists him as Biaggio Pietrone and states his date of birth as February 3, 1890 AGAIN WRONG. LESS OF A PROBLEM, THOUGH. NATURALIZATION IS WHAT COUNTRS MOST. MAYBE IN THE DEATH CERT. THERE ARE OTHER ELEMENTS THAT SOMEHOW REFER TO HIM WITH CORRECT DATA?

Grandfather:

Born Guglielnio Pietroni on 09-29-1924 to Biagio Pietroni and Rosa Palmieri (my great-grandmother also went by Rose on her marriage and death records) ROSA/ROSE IS NOT A PROBLEM

Referred to as William James Pietrone on his 1948 marriage certificate to Doloris Grucci (who later went by Dolores on her death certificate) There is also a typo on this document:

thenty instead of twenty, is this something I have to have amended? NO

And finally, on my parent's marriage certificate:

No date of birth listed. Will this be a problem? YOU SHOULD GET THEIR MARRIAGE LICENCE TO HAVE MORE DATA

Thank you so much for your time. This is not the easiest process as I'm sure you know and I appreciate any advice you could give me.

Sincerely,
Rosemary Love
REGARDS. VIRGINIA VALORE, CITIZENSHIP OFFICE


Since then, I have also noticed some other date discrepancies upon the documents. I know that all of the compiled documents pertain to the correct person, however the dates have definitely been "fudged" over the years, including the dates upon my GGF Biaggio's Birth, Death and Naturalization records all varying in dates as well as Anglicization of both his first and last names.

Amazingly, during the process of my research I had to send a request to the town registrar in in my ggf's birthplace of Capistrello. The town registrar was delighted to respond that I had gotten quite lucky and he was in fact my cousin, and the family had been searching for any relatives in America after they lost contact with Biaggio some time after his immigration! So I do have someone in Italy with the means to assist me with italian documents.

For obvious reasons, I would like to be sure that I have everything ironed out without any issues to rear their ugly head after the long wait and related expenses during my appointment at the consulate. This process has been grueling thus far and I truthfully hope I haven't hit a true dead end, but when I have attempted to reach out to some of the state offices regarding these matters I receive cold, unhelpful responses and I am beginning to become discouraged. :cry:
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Re: Jure Sanguinis Question

Postby mler » 21 Aug 2012, 16:53

Complicated situation. Since you are related to the town registrar, if you have the time, you can try applying in Italy. Why not ask your cousin if this is an option. He may well be able to help.
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