I dont know if I should go through with it!

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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I dont know if I should go through with it!

Postby cocokj » 19 Aug 2010, 12:47

I have many problems. Let me start with the first one.

Estratto Di Nascita states Born March 21 , 1885. Every American document states March 20, 1885.

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Re: I dont know if I should go through with it!

Postby suanj » 19 Aug 2010, 13:06

It is no a big problem..
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Re: I dont know if I should go through with it!

Postby jwazevedo » 19 Aug 2010, 15:18

Just to be sure: Does the 21st refer to the actual birthdate or to the record date? That distinction was lost on me when I first started reading Italian records, so I thought I'd raise it with you.

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Re: I dont know if I should go through with it!

Postby suanj » 19 Aug 2010, 15:25

Jerry the 21st refer to the actual birthdate ..
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Re: I dont know if I should go through with it!

Postby mler » 19 Aug 2010, 15:34

. . . and to be on the safe side (particularly if you are applying at one of the more difficult consulates) get a letter from your ancestral comune stating that no one by that name was born on March 20, 1885.

I must disagree with Suanj here. Years ago, the date on the Italian birth certificate was the date the birth was registered. My husband's Italian birth certificate has a date three days later than his actual birth. My husband uses the registration date--making him appear three days younger than he actually is :-)--but many Italians used their actual birth date. It appears that this is what your ancestor did.

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Re: I dont know if I should go through with it!

Postby suanj » 19 Aug 2010, 16:41

normally the birth certificates stating the day of birth... that is normal... I never had similar problem...
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Re: I dont know if I should go through with it!

Postby mler » 19 Aug 2010, 18:36

I think you're right Suanj if you're talking about today and in the larger cities. But many people seeking dual citizenship are obtaining birth certificates from the 1800's.

Especially in the small towns, the midwife often didn't have an opportunity to get to the registry immediately, and the registration took place one or several days later. My husband was born in the 1900's (obviously ;-)) and he had the same problem. My maternal grandfather, born in a small town, also had this discrepancy; my paternal grandfather, born in a large city, did not.

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Re: I dont know if I should go through with it!

Postby suanj » 19 Aug 2010, 19:43

Hi,
never, I had similar problem with professional search.. also for old records of 1820s...
The registration date is no always equal to birth date .... normally one or two days after...
However the civil records officer must write what he read by own eyes in the original birth act...
that for law otherwise he risk the jail....;
I had problems always with US documents stating different birthdates from italian certificates;
sometimes also a discrepancy of some year....

by photocopy of original birth act, anyone can check if the birth certificate stating the truth birthdate or not -as is wrote in original birthact...

Many italian civil records are microfilmed by Mormons, and what is no microfilmed, however is available in Archive of State of birth province; for that I ask the birth certificate and also the photocopy of original birthact
(copia integrale dell'atto di nascita);
so I can read with my own eyes if the birth certificate is correct... :wink:

Also it are- for the men -the italian military records; so anyone can check the birthdate.. they are made by official birthrecords provided by Communes, by years... no doubts abt that...

and by this ways it is possible to know if the certificate is correct or not; if not, it is possible to say at officer abt the discrepancy...
however, also, normally in the birth act the informant was the child's father... and he said always the truth, as a well the midwife.....

Sometimes it is possible that the true birthdate is different from birthdate declared in original birthact by informant( father, midwife)..

That happening especially for male childrens born in the last days of a year...

So, for exemple, a male baby born in the 28 december was recognized, officially, by father, in the 1 Jan of new year.. that for "classe"( year) of birth, important for men because they, in the future, sure making the military service as a well was possible a war...

The mother wished no that own son was in military service or in war when he was more young of other men born in same "classe" (year), because however it was a different adulthood between a man born in january and a man born in december of same year...

Love of mother... so also for my brother.... born in december, declared born in first day of january... and in this day also registered..

in any case the official birthdate is no the date of birth’s registration, but the date declared from informant in the registration, ahead the chivil records officer...
So for a birth registration in March 21, 1885 the civil records officer relaying the certificate must read in original birthact:â€
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Re: I dont know if I should go through with it!

Postby jwazevedo » 19 Aug 2010, 22:56

Thanks for your expanded explanation of some of the details of the Italian birth records, Suanj. I always learn something from your posts. It seems that we are all saying the same thing, but the terminology is different because we're trying to use English words instead of Italian. When I read "birth certificate", I was thinking "Atto di Nascita". In the "original birthact", as you say, the record date is not always the birth date. But with an "estratto", the records official is looking at the original birthact and writing down the actual birthdate. And that's what cocokj has, I think, an estratto. So this all makes sense now. The estratto, or "birth certificate", will have just one date: the actual birthdate.

We strayed a little bit from the original question. Getting back to that, I like Mler's cautionary advice to get a letter from the comune about no one of the same name born on that other date. Good insurance. It seems prudent in general to show the consulate that you've noted any discrepancy and dealt with it. The whole package you deliver will make a convincing story with no question marks.

Good luck, Cocokj.

Best,
Jerry

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Re: I dont know if I should go through with it!

Postby cocokj » 19 Aug 2010, 23:51

The actual birth date on all Italian documents is the 21th. My gf must have thought he was born on the 20th. He was illiterate, so it wasn't intentional.
Maybe the best way to solve this is, as someone mentioned, have the commune write a letter that no person of that name was born on that day.

I am concerned because all the US documents have the 20th date. And to fix all the other problems I would have to prove the person with the right birth date.

OH and get this one, his daughter 101 yrs old, has celebrated her birthdays
on March 17. Her Italian birth records states she was actually born on the 18th.

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Re: I dont know if I should go through with it!

Postby mler » 20 Aug 2010, 00:21

My husband and I just dug up his original Certificato di Nascita, and it lists his birth date as November 12; he was actually born on November 9. So now I'm confused. Is there another document on file that lists his correct date of birth? He naturalized using this incorrect birthdate, and all his U.S. records correspond. Maybe when we visit his comune next year, we'll check it out.

My MIL told me that often the midwife waited until she had several births to register and then registered them all together. Perhaps some were not too scrupulous about reporting the exact date.

In any case, this minor discrepancy should not be a big problem. This is not that uncommon, and the consulates are aware of this. The letter from the comune should be helpful.


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