Translation of ltr from Comune

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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sforza
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Translation of ltr from Comune

Postby sforza » 09 Sep 2010, 03:08

I received the birth certificate of my GGF from his Comune today. I also requested his "Certificato di trascorso possesso cittadinanza italiana." It was not enclosed. The cover letter stated:

"La cittadinanza non si puo attestare, in quanto agli atti di questo Comune on risulta la data di emigrazione dei predetti Sigg.ri."

The google translation of this was incomprehensible.

Does this say something about this document not being kept by the Comune/that the Comune doesn't deal w/emigration law? Any ideas where I can find this document? Is it issued in the city of emigration? Was this document in use during the turn of the 20th century or is it more recent? My GGF immigrated in 1903.

At the end of the day, I remain confused by the occasion of this document. Is it linked to emigration or is it a type of "identity card" for Italian citizens?

Thanks

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kontessa
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Re: Translation of ltr from Comune

Postby kontessa » 09 Sep 2010, 03:42

Native speakers can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that the comune is basically saying that it is not possible for them to confirm your ancestor's citizenship from their records, from the date of emigration for your ancestor.

I think this document is used by the consulates to confirm that your ancestor was indeed an Italian citizen when they emigrated. Perhaps others more knowledgeable can provide suitable alternatives for this type of confirmation. (Military records?)

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Gianna75010
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Re: Translation of ltr from Comune

Postby Gianna75010 » 09 Sep 2010, 06:51

the comune is basically saying that they can not give you a "certificato di cittadinanza" because they do not have any information on record that your ancestor emmigrated to the US. I had a similar issue when I contacted my GGF's comune. They said that they didn't know that my ancestor emmigrated to the US, so the best they could do was write a "certificato di cittadinanza" up until the last record they had for him on file (his marriage which happened to be about 6 months be he came to the US). At the bottom of the certificato they wrote "from birth to his marriage on X date." I submitted the "certificato di cittadinanza" with the end date and was able to get an appointment at Newark. I don't know if it will pose a problem at my appointment in November. I suggest try asking the comune if they have any other information on file for your ancestor to see if they can write a similar certificato that I received. Using a different type of document to prove citizenship is good suggestion too.

Hope that helps a little.

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sforza
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Re: Translation of ltr from Comune

Postby sforza » 09 Sep 2010, 23:16

Yes, it does help. Thanks.

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Re: Translation of ltr from Comune

Postby jennabet » 11 Sep 2010, 19:28

Just my two cents. Italians don't have to tell Italian authorities that they are leaving the country just as Americans don't have to report such information either. The only way the Coumune would have known that this particular Italian was no longer in Italy would have been if he registered himself with the Italian consulate in his new American city. Since most Italian immigrants were delighted to be living in the New Land, it's not likely many of them rushed to the Italian consulate. By the way, your ancestor being born in Italy does not mean he's an Italian citizen. He would only be an Italian citizen if his parents were Italian.

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Re: Translation of ltr from Comune

Postby sforza » 11 Sep 2010, 20:33

Yes, I've learned from other wise posts on this board that (unlike the US) being born in Italy does not in itself confer Italian citizenship. However, unless there was some piece of paper (like a citizen's ID card) that says they are Italian citizens, I don't know the solution - I could provide the vital records of his parents, born in Italy w/typical Italian names, but it would again beg the question of whether they were in fact Italian citizens. In the case of my GGF, I wrote to Salerno to see if they had the certificato transcorso... and certificato storico as well as any military records. I also re-wrote the comune at the advice of gianna to ask if they could certify his citizenship. I'm also hoping that his (US) declaration (he declared, but never naturalized) can be used as evidence of Italian citizenship. In it he renounces his allegiance to Victor Emmanuele III personally - a good 15 years after he left Italy. We'll see.

At the end of the day, in the absence of a standard document that is issued to all Italian citizens, this exercise of proving Italian citizenship up to the point of emigration seems pretty silly.

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Re: Translation of ltr from Comune

Postby jennabet » 11 Sep 2010, 20:45

Sforza, your GGF's Italian birth certificate, his Declaration of Intention and a letter of No Record from USCIS should be about all you need to convince the Consulate to send your documents to the Comune in Italy. After that, it's up to the Comune to decide if, in fact, your GGF is Italian because his parents were Italian.

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Re: Translation of ltr from Comune

Postby sforza » 11 Sep 2010, 21:17

I hope you're right. I've heard some consulates, particularly in some Canadian cities and the one in Newark, want the certificato di trascorso possesso cittadinanza italiana.


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