Having a bad week.. Will consulates accept ship manifest

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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Having a bad week.. Will consulates accept ship manifest

Postby sceaminmonkey » 14 Sep 2010, 14:11

So I don't think I will find any Italian birth certificates I am hearing they are all destroyed. Will the NYC consulate accept am official ship manifest showing he was from Italy? I have everything else naturalization records etc :cry:

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Re: Having a bad week.. Will consulates accept ship manifest

Postby johnnyonthespot » 14 Sep 2010, 14:24

Just curious - have you discussed this with your oldest living relatives?

Not unusual to find out that someone you haven't thought about in years has a box full of old papers, birth certificates, expired passports, and so on. I was shocked to find - after spending six months researching my paternal grandfather's naturalization and obtaining copies of his papers - that a cousin who I haven't spoken to in 30 years had the original documents! Cousin was the eldest son of grandfather's eldest child; he had naturalization papers, old photos, and lots of other goodies.
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Re: Having a bad week.. Will consulates accept ship manifest

Postby johnnyonthespot » 14 Sep 2010, 14:27

Oh, also...

When civil records do not exist, the next step is to try searching out church/parish records. In most cases, if a parish record can be found, the comune will be willing to recreate the lost civil record and then issue you a proper birth extract.

Your best option for parish records is probably to hire a local researcher, but it can be done on your own by writing to individual churches.
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Re: Having a bad week.. Will consulates accept ship manifest

Postby sceaminmonkey » 14 Sep 2010, 15:26

I did not know Tthey can do that. My ggf is from Naples and the church he was baptized in was destroyed. I don't know what other certificates I can get or what the consulate will accept and as for the last people my great aunt talked to, I believe they are all dead . If there is a living common ancestor perhaps something stating I am a decendant as well? If I can even contact them and they are willing to.

Thanks

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Re: Having a bad week.. Will consulates accept ship manifest

Postby mler » 14 Sep 2010, 18:52

The comune may be willing to write a letter stating that the birth records for that period were destroyed. You are lucky in that your ancestor did naturalize. The naturalization papers will show that he was an Italian citizen at that time.

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Re: Having a bad week.. Will consulates accept ship manifest

Postby sceaminmonkey » 14 Sep 2010, 19:04

I heard the new York consulate is strict like very strict. Yes hopefully the
Records will show this. I'm starting to lose hope. I want to be an Italian citizen so bad.as of now it seems my GGF and GGM birth and baptismal certificates were both destroyed because of world wars and natural disasters.

Thanks again
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Re: Having a bad week.. Will consulates accept ship manifest

Postby johnnyonthespot » 14 Sep 2010, 19:52

Don't give up until you are told absolutely by the consulate that it is hopeless. And, even then...

Just for the heck of it, you might write back to Napoli and ask what proof would they accept in order to create a birth record. You seem to know where he was baptized; what is that based upon? Do you have a document?

Ask if they would create a birth record based on his US Naturalization papers. Unlikely, but what's the harm in asking?

When did he leave Italy? I don't recall exactly when Italy insituted passports as a requirement for travel, but you might contact the provincial archives to see if there is a passport record available. For that matter, you can also request his draft registration and/or military records. Any of these would go a long way towards proving place of birth and citizenship status.

This thread ( http://italiangenealogy.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=15162/ ) has information on how to request military records. The Registro di Leva is something akin to a draft registration list and the Foglio di Congedo Illimitato is a military service record. My experience with provincial archives is that the response time is usually very good - often just a few weeks.

Mailing address:

Archivio di Stato di Napoli
Piazzetta del Grande Archivio
80138 Napoli
ITALY

Email: as-na@beniculturali.it (remove the spaces)
Website: http://www.archiviodistatonapoli.it/asnaCMS/
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Re: Having a bad week.. Will consulates accept ship manifest

Postby sceaminmonkey » 14 Sep 2010, 20:57

My GGF was born on a street close to Santa Chiara which is a famous church that was destroyed. I do not know if that his church but I believe it was. As far as draft registration goes, at what age did young men have to register for military service? I believe he left when he was 16 or 17. he was not their during WWI or WWII would he still have registered? and does anyone know a translation service I can use to request the draft record by email. I do not speak italian.


thanks ! everyone on this forum has been so helpful!

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Re: Having a bad week.. Will consulates accept ship manifest

Postby johnnyonthespot » 15 Sep 2010, 11:58

sceaminmonkey wrote:As far as draft registration goes, at what age did young men have to register for military service? I believe he left when he was 16 or 17. he was not their during WWI or WWII would he still have registered?


Ah, well, it was a good thought...

Unfortunately, he would not appear in the Registro di Leva (the draft registration) until he reached the age of 19.
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Re: Having a bad week.. Will consulates accept ship manifest

Postby sceaminmonkey » 15 Sep 2010, 13:12

He left at 18. I'm SOL?

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Re: Having a bad week.. Will consulates accept ship manifest

Postby johnnyonthespot » 15 Sep 2010, 13:45

sceaminmonkey wrote:He left at 18. I'm SOL?


I would contact the provincial archives anyway, using the format shown in the post I linked to in an earlier message. There is no cost unless they find records and, even then, it is usally just a few dollars to cover photocopying and postage.
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Re: Having a bad week.. Will consulates accept ship manifest

Postby sceaminmonkey » 16 Sep 2010, 05:05

Well I took your advice carmine. I sent an email for a military record. I will post what happens. I am not hopeful but you are right, I should not give up hope.


Hoping for the best
Dave

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Re: Having a bad week.. Will consulates accept ship manifest

Postby johnnyonthespot » 16 Sep 2010, 12:05

I forget the timing regarding your GGF, but if you are lucky there will be a military record which at the least lists him as a "deserter" because he did not report for duty when ordered to do so. This was apparently common for young Italian men who came to the US in the 1895-1915 era and thus did not report for duty when "called up" during WWI.
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Re: Having a bad week.. Will consulates accept ship manifest

Postby sceaminmonkey » 16 Sep 2010, 15:42

He was born in 1887 and came here when he was about 17 or 18. so 1904 or 1905. Would the italian consulate accept that? and does deserter count as renouncing citizenship? I know that is a stupid question but I would not want to give it to the consulate if that is the case. and for the email I sent using the format you provided would they send a record like that?

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Re: Having a bad week.. Will consulates accept ship manifest

Postby johnnyonthespot » 16 Sep 2010, 16:16

sceaminmonkey wrote:He was born in 1887 and came here when he was about 17 or 18. so 1904 or 1905. Would the italian consulate accept that? and does deserter count as renouncing citizenship? I know that is a stupid question but I would not want to give it to the consulate if that is the case. and for the email I sent using the format you provided would they send a record like that?


No. If it did, most of us would probably have lost our jus sanguinis case.

My hope is that you can find something, anything, from which you will be able to make a strong case for place of birth and citizenship status. I think any military record would accomplish that goal.
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