Limiting Jure Sanguinis Only to Grandchildren?

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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ForzaItaliaPgh
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Limiting Jure Sanguinis Only to Grandchildren?

Postby ForzaItaliaPgh » 17 Sep 2010, 04:14

Ciao tutti,

I've recently heard that the Italian Parliament is considering a law which would limit Jure Sanguinis citizenship to children and grandchildren of citizens, excluding great grandchildren and beyond.

This concerns me (and many others here, I'd assume) as I am a great-grandchild and if this is true and the law passes I would no longer have a right to Italian citizenship. As I am still in the process of getting citizenship, this could stop me in my tracks.

All I've heard are rumors, does anyone know anything definitive about this?

Let's hope this isn't true!

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Re: Limiting Jure Sanguinis Only to Grandchildren?

Postby mler » 17 Sep 2010, 10:45

I've not heard anything about it, and in any case, the legal system in Italy moves very slowly so I doubt you need worry.

Actually, to be honest, such a law seems to make sense, since many applicants are far removed from the emigrating Italian ancestor and, because of marriages to non-Italians, have only a tenuous connection to Italy. At the same time, children of naturalized parents are not eligible. I suspect that this fact has resulted in the sometimes overly officious manner in which applications are viewed.

You don't have anything to worry about, though. If something like this should occur, simply have your parent apply through his/her grandfather. Then you register as the son of an Italian citizen.

BTW, my son was in both positions. He was ineligible to apply through his Italian-born, but naturalized, father but was eligible through my grandfather, his greatgrandfather. Technically, since I also applied, I received citizenship tracing the line to my grandfather, and he obtained citizenship through his mother.

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Re: Limiting Jure Sanguinis Only to Grandchildren?

Postby johnnyonthespot » 17 Sep 2010, 11:05

I agree on both points.

Yes, I have read that various propositions to limit jus sanguinis are put forth somewhat regularly by fringe elements of the Italian political scene. These have included generational limits as well as other restrictions.

It is unlikely that any of these propositions will gain significant momentum in the short term; Italy would have to see a huge political swing in its parliament first.

On the other hand, as it stands right now, Italy has possibly the most generous citizenship rules for blood descendants of any civilized country; no one else comes even remotely close with the possible exception of Ireland - where there is a generational limit in place making it extremely difficult to go beyond grandparent stage and impossible to go beyond the great-grandparent stage..
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Re: Limiting Jure Sanguinis Only to Grandchildren?

Postby ForzaItaliaPgh » 17 Sep 2010, 13:29

Thanks for your thoughts!
:D

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Re: Limiting Jure Sanguinis Only to Grandchildren?

Postby jennabet » 17 Sep 2010, 23:09

I was recognized in 2001 and recently spoke with a Vice Consular official who told me that, "Italy opened up a big can of worms when it changed it's citizenship laws in 1992". I don't know if this means things will be changed to limit citizenship jus sanguinis to children and grand-children but the sense of frustration in this official's words was unmistakeable.

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Re: Limiting Jure Sanguinis Only to Grandchildren?

Postby sceaminmonkey » 17 Sep 2010, 23:11

if it was limited to grandchildren would the children of the grandchildren get citizenship anyway? pretty much making it what it is now?

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Re: Limiting Jure Sanguinis Only to Grandchildren?

Postby jennabet » 17 Sep 2010, 23:31

Minor children would be automatically recognized. Adult children would have to apply on their own but would not be eligible because the ascendant would be a great-grandparent.

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Re: Limiting Jure Sanguinis Only to Grandchildren?

Postby jennabet » 17 Sep 2010, 23:36

On second thought, I'm not really sure about this. Can anyone elaborate?

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Re: Limiting Jure Sanguinis Only to Grandchildren?

Postby mler » 17 Sep 2010, 23:47

I would tend to disagree. What I think they would like to do (assuming our suppositions are correct) is prevent the applications that trace back to great, greatgreat, and sometimes even greatgreatgreat grandparents.

Such a change in the law would eliminate quite a few applications. As the years pass, any of the grandchildren who would be eligible to claim citizenship would be very old or no longer living. Their children would be ineligible to apply. In other words, there would be a generational limit, one that does not now exist.

In a sense, I understand the frustration of the consular officials who process these applications. As the years pass, they must go through documents that go back more and more generations, and, because of intermarriage and generational distance, some applicants who trace citizenship that far back do not have exceptionally strong ties to Italy. Very few applicants today have even a passing knowledge of the Italian language. :(

Should generational limits be imposed, however, for those whose citizenship is recognized, that citizenship is recognized as existing from birth. Thus his children are born Italian citizens and would be registered as such. Their children would then also be registered in AIRE at the consulate--an obligation of all Italian citizens.

Children of newly recognized Italian citizens would obtain citizenship the same way children of all Italians do, through their parent. The citizenship line would continue to move forward; the limits would be on the backward movement.

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Re: Limiting Jure Sanguinis Only to Grandchildren?

Postby johnnyonthespot » 18 Sep 2010, 00:11

mler wrote:I would tend to disagree.


I agree with you.

The thing is, I see little point in limiting the number of generations. I wonder what percentage of applicants are reaching back to a grandparent, what percentage to a great-grandparent, and what percentage even further...

I think we are more likely to see jus sanguinis "citizens" facing limits on their rights. For example, as I understand the current situation, I can move to Italy at retirement age and join the national health care system at very low cost (did I read somewhere the annual tax contribution for retirees was just a few hundred euro?), even though I never paid a dime in Italian income taxes. I would not be surprised to see this changed, possibly sooner rather than later.

On the other hand, I suggested some time ago on another board that citizenship jus sanguinis could be Italy's insurance policy to cover future government deficits. For those of you who, like me, have already been recognized - if Italy were to impose a Euro 50 annual tax on "citizens residing abroad" (to "cover the cost of consular services and maintaining the AIRE"), would you grumble but pay it? Sure you would.

And, if after a couple of years, the tax were increased to Euro 75/year, would you pay it? Euro 100/year? All the time keeping in mind that you must pay a Euro 200 fee in order to renounce the Italian citizenship that you fought so hard to get in the first place. Frankly, I think jus sanguinis could be a goldmine for Italy if the government considered all the available options. :twisted:
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Re: Limiting Jure Sanguinis Only to Grandchildren?

Postby mler » 18 Sep 2010, 00:14

Shhh. Let's not give them any ideas. ;)

I think you're right Carmine about the number of applicants applying today, but in the not-too-distant future, generational limits would put a real dent in the number of applications. The grandchildren will no longer be living.

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Re: Limiting Jure Sanguinis Only to Grandchildren?

Postby sceaminmonkey » 18 Sep 2010, 00:18

I agree with carmine. I am not even recognized yet but, it would make sense to raise the tax a little. or at least have some system so that those who are applying through a great grandparent such as myself should have to pay more per year as my ancestors ( my mom and grandpa) did not pay taxes in italy at all. it makes sense why should I get the same benefits for half the money put in? perhaps even a minimum amount of years worked or residing in italy to qualify for benefits.

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Re: Limiting Jure Sanguinis Only to Grandchildren?

Postby jennabet » 18 Sep 2010, 00:29

Just for the record. Italy has a Constitution. For this reason, there isn't likely to be any new tax imposed on jus sanguinis citizens unless it's imposed on all citizens. Remember, Italy does not recognize birth on the soil. You are Italian by blood and from birth which means it doesn't matter where you were born.

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Re: Limiting Jure Sanguinis Only to Grandchildren?

Postby mler » 18 Sep 2010, 01:09

That's true, and I doubt very much we'll ever see categories of citizenship, with different rules, requirements, privileges and responsibilities depending on the category into which you fall. In fact, that's another argument for NOT imposing generational limitations.

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Re: Limiting Jure Sanguinis Only to Grandchildren?

Postby ForzaItaliaPgh » 18 Sep 2010, 01:25

All this has me thinking.

Theoretically, doesn't jure sanguinis work like this: my great grandfather was born in Italy - an Italian citizen. He moves to America and has my grandfather (who is born an Italian citizen by right of blood, but doesn't know it) BEFORE he naturalizes. My grandfather has my father and passes on Italian citizenship through the blood, who then in turn has me, passing on citizenship again. Really (at least in theory) I am already an Italian citizen and have always been, I just have to prove that. Thus, a generation limit really makes no sense at all, since we all really are not claiming through our great-grandfather but through our fathers, we just also have to prove our fathers and grandfathers were in fact citizens, because they never knew they were.

Even inter-marriage really doesn't matter, b/c the citizenship is passed regardless of marriage. The only restriction ever based on marriage was if you were claiming through a female pre-1945, but that has been withdrawn.

And we really aren't "jure sanguinis citizens" vs "Italian soil citizens". In fact, as Italy understands citizenship, ALL citizens are jure sanguinis citizens as the right to citizenship was passed through the blood regardless of whether the citizen was born in the USA or Italy or elsewhere.

So really any change to jure sanguinis would really require a complete redefinition of what it means to be Italian.


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