Documents and Names? HELP!

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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ande
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Documents and Names? HELP!

Postby ande » 23 Sep 2010, 14:38

Greetings Forum Members,
I posted a question yesterday regarding different names used by mother. Her marriage certificate in NJ has an incorrect first and last name which also appears on my birth certificate in NJ. Her correct name is on her birth certificate in NYC which also matches my grandfather's naturalization document.
Also, neither my mother's birth certificate from NYC or her marriage from NJ list her father's name. How does this work?
Do I have to have her marriage certificate and my birth certificate corrected or just my birth certificate?
Will they ammend these documents that don't show her father's name? How will the consulate accept these when they don't show who my mother's father was?
Your help is appreciated.
P.S. Neither her birth certificate or marriage certificate are originals but are official copies with the raised seal.

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Re: Documents and Names? HELP!

Postby johnnyonthespot » 23 Sep 2010, 15:14

Ande, which consulate will you be applying at?

Is your mother in the direct line, or are you going through your father's lineage?

Is your mother still living?
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Re: Documents and Names? HELP!

Postby ande » 23 Sep 2010, 15:51

Johnnyonthespot,
Thanks for your reply. I'm going through my mother in the direct line because my father's father naturalized before he was born but her's did not. She is deceased. I suppose I'd go through the NYC consulate as that's the closest one to where I live and that's where my grandparents came to and where my mother was born.
What do you think?
Thanks, Ande

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Re: Documents and Names? HELP!

Postby johnnyonthespot » 23 Sep 2010, 16:22

Ande,

You may possibly but not necessarily be using the New York City consulate. You can visit the embassy website to see which consulate has jurisdiction over your place of legal residence: http://www.ambwashingtondc.esteri.it/Am ... consolare/

Now, the bad: you may have a tough road ahead.

a) I hoped you were going through your father because then I could have told you to not bother at all with your mother's birth or death certificates (most consulates actually do not review documents for persons not in the direct line). Unfortunately, that is not the case.

b) I asked if your mother is still living because in many states - including New York if I recall correctly - marriage certificates can be ammended only by the husband or wife. If both are deceased, it can be impossible to change these documents.

What is the extent of the incorrect names on the marriage certificate and your birth certificate? An altered letter? An entire syllable?

I am curious about the missing father's name; is there a box on the form which is simply left blank?
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Re: Documents and Names? HELP!

Postby ande » 23 Sep 2010, 16:38

Hi Carmine,
My parents were married in Elizabeth, NJ not New York. I obtained their marriage certificate from the city of Elizabeth. When I asked them about amending it I was told that they would have to send it to the state and no death certificate would be required just her birth certificate. Her name on her marriage certificate and my New Jersey birth certificate is Jean Messina but her correct name on her New York birth certificate is Giuseppina MASINO which is my grandfather's last name on his documents. Neither her birth certificate form NYC or her marriage certificate from NJ list her father's name or have a box to check for that. They are not the originals and say they certified copies of the originals in the registrars office. Both parents are deceased.
Thanks for your help.
Ande

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Re: Documents and Names? HELP!

Postby ande » 23 Sep 2010, 16:53

Carmine,
Do I need to have my parent's marriage certificate at all if I can get my birth certificate corrected for my mother's name from Jean Messina to Giuseppina Masino? That would show that she's my mother. It does seem odd that nothing shows who her father is though.
Ande

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Re: Documents and Names? HELP!

Postby johnnyonthespot » 23 Sep 2010, 17:00

You are sooo lucky that New Jersey has a reasonable policy concerning ammending marriage certificates. The spelling Messina is very common in Italy with well over 7,000 listings in the current Italian telephone directory. You would have a very hard time convincing the consulate that Jean Messina and Giuseppina Masino are the same person.

I don't know about New Jersey, but many states have two separate documents for marriage records, the marriage license and the marriage certificate. In New York, the license is the document which contains parent's names, dates & places of birth, and on and on. The certificate has much less data. Most consulates require both of these documents.

Perhaps you can telephone the local registrar in New Jersey ( http://www.state.nj.us/health/vital/regbycnty.shtml ) and ask whether their is another document which contains the missing details.
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Re: Documents and Names? HELP!

Postby ande » 23 Sep 2010, 18:05

I don't really know for sure what the New Jersey policy is regarding the marriage certificate, that was just something the person at vital statistics in Elizabeth told me. Is that information you know to be the case? Why do you think my mother's birth certificate doesn't list her parent's names? What if I just get my birth certificate corrected, do I need the marriage certificate?

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Re: Documents and Names? HELP!

Postby johnnyonthespot » 23 Sep 2010, 18:23

Ande,

From the New Jersey Vital Records web page ( http://www.state.nj.us/health/vital/amend.shtml ):

General Corrections to All Vital Records, Birth, Death, Marriage, Civil Union or Domestic Partnership.

General corrections to vital records are made via an REG-34 General Amendment form, available at any vital records office. General corrections fall into three categories; ancillary, non-ancillary items and typographical errors.

Ancillary items are non-critical supplemental items. In most cases these corrections can be accepted and amended certified copies issued immediately by the Local Registrar without review or authorization by the State Bureau of Vital Statistics and Registration.

Non-ancillary items are critical items, requiring review and approval by the State Bureau of Vital Statistics and Registration prior to being accepted and amended copies issued.

Non-Ancillary items are:

•Name of the subject(s) of the record
•Date of the event
•Place of the event
•In some cases, parent names
•Domestic Status, Name of Spouse/Partner on Marriage, Civil Union, and Domestic Partnership certificates
•Domestic Status, Surviving Spouse/Partner and all medical/injury data on Death certificates

Typographical or documented hospital errors require the signature of the parent(s) listed on the birth certificate, or the child upon the age of 18 and may require proof of the documented error. In most cases, the parents may file for correction of typographical or documented hospital errors through the local registrar’s office where the vital event occurred.

Correction requests for a marriage/civil union or domestic partnership requires one or both applicants to sign the amendment form.



I am not certain if that last line above means that one of the spouses must sign the form, or if there is another meaning there.

As to the birth certificate, my best guess is that you have a "short form" birth certificate as opposed to a "long form" document. In this thread ( http://italiangenealogy.com/Forums/view ... +form.html ), I show examples of New York short and long form birth certificates. Not sure about those from New Jersey. My father was born in Hoboken in 1921; his New Jersey birth certificate lists name, address, age, place of birth, and occupation for both parents of the baby.
Carmine

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Re: Documents and Names? HELP!

Postby ande » 23 Sep 2010, 18:37

Carmine,
Thanks again. The birth certificate that I have for my mother doesn't look like either one of the ones posted. It has the raised seal and it's official but it must be a shorter form than the short form because it doesn't have any place where the parents are listed. It was issued in 1963 and is stamped MANHATTAN though the date of birth is 1916.
Do you know a phone number in NYC thatI could call?
Ande

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Re: Documents and Names? HELP!

Postby ande » 23 Sep 2010, 20:23

It appears that I'd be applying through the consulate in Newark, NJ. I don't think New York will issue me a copy of my mother's birth certificate with her father's name unless I correct mine first. I don't even know if one exists with his name on it.
What to do, any ideas?

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Re: Documents and Names? HELP!

Postby KarenChristino » 24 Sep 2010, 00:29

Ande,

What about baptism records and church marriage records? Do you have any idea of what church your parents or grandparents attended? Perhaps these records may have the correct information. You can contact the Archdiocese in the area and they should be able to provide you with the churches in the vicinity.

Karen

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Re: Documents and Names? HELP!

Postby ande » 24 Sep 2010, 17:23

Karen, Thanks for your reply. I think I'm going to go the route of getting my birth certificate amended with my mother's correct maiden name so I can apply for a different copy of my mother's birth certificate that shows her parents name on it. The one I have is a" certification of birth". If my mother's death certificate and birth certificate match then I'll be in business.
Do you think I need to have my parent's marriage certificate corrected too if my birth certificate shows her corect maiden name? I wouldn't think so because it shouldn't matter if my parents were married right?
Ande

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Re: Documents and Names? HELP!

Postby KarenChristino » 24 Sep 2010, 18:35

Good luck! Just remember that other documents may exist if you hit a snag in the correction process. Others with more experience will have to chime in on the marriage record. They seem to request it. And if it's not an involved process, why not do it? But I agree with you -- it doesn't seem logical that it should make a difference if someone's parents weren't married.

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Re: Documents and Names? HELP!

Postby mishy » 27 Sep 2010, 04:24

Ande.....You need to get all the long forms from Trenton...birth, marriage,death. The one you got from the town of Elizabeth is considered the short form and the Consulate will not accept those. Usually on the long forms, it will state everything, and it may have your mother's father listed on that form. You didn't mention your mothers death certificate. Is her correct name on that? But just remember, all documents you will need, have to be the long form. And those need an apostille.


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