Date discrepancies.

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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sceaminmonkey
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Date discrepancies.

Postby sceaminmonkey » 01 Oct 2010, 11:56

So after losing all hope the amazing Riccardo Bruno has located my GGF birth record from Naples which I am blown away by because the other two services I hired didn't find anything. The problem is his naturalization records say march 5 1887 and his birth record say Sept 5 1886. what can I do? Archives say I can't change anything in their possession an I have a letter stating that . What are other peoples experience ? Thanks again

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Re: Date discrepancies.

Postby johnnyonthespot » 01 Oct 2010, 12:01

That's a very big difference. What do his other documents say? What is date of birth on his death certificate? On his marriage license?

If everything else says September 5, 1886, the consulate is going to assume that the March 5, 1887 document belongs to a different person with the same name and you are going to have to battle to convince them otherwise.
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Re: Date discrepancies.

Postby sceaminmonkey » 01 Oct 2010, 12:45

Do you think it is worth doing another search under the new date and getting a no record reply? can the naturalization records be changed? I don't think his death certificate has his birthday on it i did not see one. What should i do? I do think this is him it's a 7 month difference onthensame day though

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Re: Date discrepancies.

Postby johnnyonthespot » 01 Oct 2010, 12:57

I would feel better about it if it were the same year or if the months had similar spelling (Mar. / May, Marzo / Maggio) and could be easily mistaken. But, no matter how I look at it:

March / September
Mar. / Sep.
Marzo / Settembre
5-3-1886 / 5-9-1885
3-5-1886 / 9-5-1885

I can't come up with a logical explanation for the difference.

What does Riccardo think?
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Re: Date discrepancies.

Postby sceaminmonkey » 01 Oct 2010, 13:01

He thinks most people that came to the united states don't remember exact days and only seem to remember what they remember . Undone know because the parents names are the same. And it is the same day which isnthe 5 which makes mr believe this is correct.What should be done? Am I completely screwed?

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Re: Date discrepancies.

Postby johnnyonthespot » 01 Oct 2010, 13:08

Well, it seems the only thing you can do is rely on the consular official to be reasonable and in a good mood for your appointment.

It is true that date discrepancies do get through; the NYC consulate gave me a pass on a three day discrepancy in my grandfather's documents - Italian birth and marriage certificates put his dob at March 16, 1886 while his US naturalization and death certificates say March 19, 1886.
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Re: Date discrepancies.

Postby sceaminmonkey » 01 Oct 2010, 13:13

Indontget know if they will take it I'm worried. I am not lying To them this is my GGF but if it can't be changed what can be done? I'll just keep my fingers crossed and get a lawyer if anything? Thanks for being encouraging by the way Carmine. I was sure I wouldn't find anything as you may recall.

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Re: Date discrepancies. UPDATE

Postby sceaminmonkey » 01 Oct 2010, 17:37

so now I see on the petition for naturalization or the intent for naturalization sept 5 1887 so just the year is wrong. on the actual naturalization form it says march 5 1887. as it turns out his correct bday is sept 5 1886. I Have my work cut out for me but I believe now that it is possible. I CAN NOT THANK RICCARDO OR CARMINE ENOUGH!!!!! I know believe I will successful in citizenship.

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Re: Date discrepancies.

Postby sceaminmonkey » 02 Oct 2010, 03:42

now I just noticed on the petition for naturalization My grandfather is listed as living with my GGF but my GF birth day is written down as october 13 1916 when it is october 3 1916. also it turns out my GGF death certificate has his birth day left blank but his age is written down. what should I do?

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Re: Date discrepancies.

Postby ricbru » 02 Oct 2010, 09:37

DO NOTHING, discrepancies needs to be amended with birth, marriage and death records within US civil records.
Where it is blank, leave it like that
ciao Riccardo

sceaminmonkey wrote:now I just noticed on the petition for naturalization My grandfather is listed as living with my GGF but my GF birth day is written down as october 13 1916 when it is october 3 1916. also it turns out my GGF death certificate has his birth day left blank but his age is written down. what should I do?

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Re: Date discrepancies.

Postby timo » 02 Oct 2010, 12:21

sceaminmonkey wrote:Do you think it is worth doing another search under the new date and getting a no record reply?


If you have fairly convincing documentation of his place of birth, it would do no harm, IMO, to have a letter from that comune saying there is no person born there with your GF's name whose date of birth matches the date on the naturalization record.

Such a letter would not prove that the man on the naturalization record is the baby on your GF's birth certificate, but it would show that you have not confused two people with the same name born in the same comune only months apart, cousins perhaps?

(There is actually someone with my exact name, including the middle intital, living not far from me, born a couple of years after me. We are not related. My surname is fairly common. He has bad credit and for a while I was getting dunning phone calls demanding that I pay my bills.)

What were the naming conventions when brothers had their first sons about the same time? Would both baby boys be named after the paternal grandfather? Antonio, meet your cousin Antonino?

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Re: Date discrepancies.

Postby ricbru » 02 Oct 2010, 12:32

Timo,
when a registrar looks for a birth record in order to issue a birth certificate, for sure he goes using the informations of who is requesting the certificate.
Gennaro Petillo, is son of Felice and Anna Grimaldi.
Screamymonkey has march 5th 1887, and the right date is Sept 5th 1886.
The registrar is not going to declare that there is no one born with that name, those parents and that date, since the same person was born just 6 months earlier, the registrar is already issueing the certificates, and the proof is the names and lasta names of his parents.
Riccardo

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Re: Date discrepancies.

Postby timo » 02 Oct 2010, 14:32

Riccardo, of course I do not know screamingmonkey's family name, whether it was common or rare, and I certainly wasn't criticizing your skills. I was simply acting as "the devil's advocate" for a moment, in the abstract, playing the role of incredulous civil servant who wants to rule out cases of "mistaken identity".

Here is a scenario I had in mind. Again, not saying this mirrors screamingmonkey's scenario:

Someone knows his grandfather's name, and maybe knows his grandfather's place of birth in Italy. We have an American birth certificate for the applicant, showing his name and place of birth (e.g. Somerville MA), his father's name and place of birth (BOSTON MA); and we have the applicant's father's birth certificate showing his place of birth (BOSTON MA) and his father's name GIUSEPPE VERDI and place of birth = ITALY. From these American-issued records he can show that in good faith he truly believes himself to be the patrilineal grandson of a man born in Italy whose name was "Giuseppe Verdi" or whatever.

He searches the online Ellis Island archives and finds in a ship's manifest a person with his grandfather's exact name, Giuseppe Verdi, traveling in the company of parents, Antonio Verdi and Imelda Puzo. The manifest also gives the family's place of origin. Bingo! That's where his grandfather was born! It says he was 5 years old. That's about right, he would have been 4-1/2 or 5 at that time. And I think grandpa might have mentioned that ship by name. It sounds very familiar. Now the searcher believes he knows also the names of his great-grandparents, and makes a subsequent request for a birth certificate to the comune using those three names.

The civil servant asks the applicant, I can see from your American birth certificates that your grandfather was named Giuseppe Verdi and that he was born in ITALY. But how do we know that these are your great-grandparents? What proof do we have of that lineage? Prove to us that those people were your great-grandparents.

Or imagine that the civil servant is an American civil servant. So, you want to change the date of birth on your grandfather's marriage certificate so it matches an Italian birth certificate (if sans apostille it will need one). What proof do you have that the birth certificate you have in your hand belonged to your grandfather and not to some other man with the same name? After all, the dates do not match.

Regards
T

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Re: Date discrepancies.

Postby sceaminmonkey » 02 Oct 2010, 15:17

I trust the advice I am geting . I hear horror stories about the new York consulate though and am worried that those dates on the naturalization will make them say no. I will work on amending certificates.

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Re: Date discrepancies.

Postby ricbru » 03 Oct 2010, 15:57

Timo, I understand your point, the proves are all the US civil records and the naturalization papers, where there are 3 names, Gennaio Petillo, his father Felice and his mother Anna Grimaldi, those infos are in his marriage and death records.
You do good to do the advocate of the devil, and I'm not offended if you do criticize the way I work.
90% of italian descendent living in USA, and applying for italian citizenship, have a discrepancies like that in their paperworks, and not even an italian consulate at all ever denied the right to become an italian citizen. Their process ended greatly!!!!
For sure the applicant has a starting point, and it has to be verified at the civil record office of the municipality where he was born in Italy.
Also a brother of my grandpa emigrated twice in US, his US papers states he was born on feb 10th 1893 (also writte on his tombstone), and his real birth record was feb 15th 1892, so it is almost similar to the situation of screamymonkey.
I can tell you that is from my experience, after more than 7 years of helping people around the world.
Regards
Riccardo

timo wrote:Riccardo, of course I do not know screamingmonkey's family name, whether it was common or rare, and I certainly wasn't criticizing your skills. I was simply acting as "the devil's advocate" for a moment, in the abstract, playing the role of incredulous civil servant who wants to rule out cases of "mistaken identity".

Here is a scenario I had in mind. Again, not saying this mirrors screamingmonkey's scenario:

Someone knows his grandfather's name, and maybe knows his grandfather's place of birth in Italy. We have an American birth certificate for the applicant, showing his name and place of birth (e.g. Somerville MA), his father's name and place of birth (BOSTON MA); and we have the applicant's father's birth certificate showing his place of birth (BOSTON MA) and his father's name GIUSEPPE VERDI and place of birth = ITALY. From these American-issued records he can show that in good faith he truly believes himself to be the patrilineal grandson of a man born in Italy whose name was "Giuseppe Verdi" or whatever.

He searches the online Ellis Island archives and finds in a ship's manifest a person with his grandfather's exact name, Giuseppe Verdi, traveling in the company of parents, Antonio Verdi and Imelda Puzo. The manifest also gives the family's place of origin. Bingo! That's where his grandfather was born! It says he was 5 years old. That's about right, he would have been 4-1/2 or 5 at that time. And I think grandpa might have mentioned that ship by name. It sounds very familiar. Now the searcher believes he knows also the names of his great-grandparents, and makes a subsequent request for a birth certificate to the comune using those three names.

The civil servant asks the applicant, I can see from your American birth certificates that your grandfather was named Giuseppe Verdi and that he was born in ITALY. But how do we know that these are your great-grandparents? What proof do we have of that lineage? Prove to us that those people were your great-grandparents.

Or imagine that the civil servant is an American civil servant. So, you want to change the date of birth on your grandfather's marriage certificate so it matches an Italian birth certificate (if sans apostille it will need one). What proof do you have that the birth certificate you have in your hand belonged to your grandfather and not to some other man with the same name? After all, the dates do not match.

Regards
T


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