Citizenship through GF born from GGM before 1948

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
User avatar
longabardi.hasbrouck
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 14
Joined: 08 Nov 2010, 16:51

Citizenship through GF born from GGM before 1948

Postby longabardi.hasbrouck » 08 Nov 2010, 18:15

I am seeking some clarity and recommendations regarding my situation.
Here is my Lineage:

Me ->
Father ->
Grand Father (Born 1921) ->
Great Grand Mother (Italian born, never naturalized, married American in US 1907)

From my understanding, she not only lost her Italian citizenship by marrying a foreigner before 1948, but also lost her right to pass her citizenship to her children.

Before loosing all hope, I did more research and found that some have had luck presenting their case before the Italian court and reinstating their female ancestor's citizenship, and right to pass citizenship to children before 1948. However, this is done on a case by case basis as Italian law does not carry precedence on court rulings as does US law. (again, if my understanding is correct)

I have also read some conflicting information regarding a March 2009 ruling:
http://www.immigrazioneoggi.it/daily_ne ... /06_1.html

According to others, simply referencing this ruling in my application to the consulate will require them to honor my application?

I am willing to do whatever it takes, even if I have to spend money on a lawyer or travel to Italy. Has anyone had success with a similar lineage to mine, and if so, could you recommend a lawyer?
Additionally, I have emailed Luigi Paiano and am awaiting a reply

Thanks much

User avatar
DeFilippis78
Master
Master
Posts: 1144
Joined: 02 Dec 2009, 02:19

Re: Citizenship through GF born from GGM before 1948

Postby DeFilippis78 » 08 Nov 2010, 19:36

Here is a lawyer recommended on this board.

www.italianlaw.net

His name is Anthony Alioto. Hes a lawyer for real estate in Italy but also dual citizenship. Hes in California

User avatar
johnnyonthespot
Master
Master
Posts: 5229
Joined: 04 Aug 2008, 15:01
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: Citizenship through GF born from GGM before 1948

Postby johnnyonthespot » 08 Nov 2010, 20:29

It is a detail worth mentioning: you refer to two different issues.

1) a female ancestor's involuntary loss of Italian citizenship through marriage

2) prior to the implementation of the modern Italian constitution on January 1, 1948, Italian citizenship was passed only by the father; Italian women were denied several important rights prior to that date, the right to pass citizenship being one of them. In other words, regardless of whether or not your great-grandmother still retained her own Italian citizenship in 1921, she could not have passed that citizenship to her children who were born prior to 1/1/1948.

I believe each of these subjects has been tried in the Italian courts with varying success. If, for example, your grandfather had been born in 1949, then you would only need to seek relief on #1. As described, your situation would require relief on both #1 (restore your great-grandmother's citizenship) and #2 (make the rights granted by the "new" Italian constitution retroactive all the way back to 1921.

In short, my understanding:

Likelyhood of getting relief on #1, maybe not so bad.

Likelyhood of getting relief on #2, not very good.
Carmine

My hobby is finding things. Having found most of my own, I am happy to help others find theirs. PM me! :)

jennabet
Master
Master
Posts: 1038
Joined: 14 Jul 2010, 20:28
Location: Ancestral Homeland - Abruzzo Italy

Re: Citizenship through GF born from GGM before 1948

Postby jennabet » 08 Nov 2010, 21:22

In Italy, prior to 1948, you WERE what your father WAS. Italians born in Italy to foreign fathers were required to become naturalized at age 18 if they wanted Italian nationality. Naturalization meant they had to renounce their foreign father's nationality and they could NOT have dual citizenship. There was NO relief for them and there should be NO relief for anyone else born outside of Italy with a similar set of circumstances.

User avatar
longabardi.hasbrouck
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 14
Joined: 08 Nov 2010, 16:51

Re: Citizenship through GF born from GGM before 1948

Postby longabardi.hasbrouck » 08 Nov 2010, 22:00

I do understand that this is two separate issues, however, why do you say that it is more likely to make her citizenship retroactive to her marriage in 1907 and less likely to make her right to transfer citizenship retroactive to my GF in 1921?
If anything, I would have thought it would be the other way around, because my GF's birth in 1921 is much closer to 1948 than her marriage in 1907.

Also, for clarification, my GGM was born in Positano, Italy to two Italian parents. She then moved to America with her parents, and married in 1907.

Thanks for the input so far

User avatar
johnnyonthespot
Master
Master
Posts: 5229
Joined: 04 Aug 2008, 15:01
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: Citizenship through GF born from GGM before 1948

Postby johnnyonthespot » 08 Nov 2010, 22:10

#1 involves citizenship laws which were changed from time to time by acts of the legislature.

#2 involves a basic constitutional right which did not exist until 1948.

Applying US standards, the first are much easier to overturn in the courts than are the second.

The Italian cases I have read about for the most part are #1-type cases. Attorney Luigi Paiano appears to have had a very small number of successes in #2-type cases.
Carmine

My hobby is finding things. Having found most of my own, I am happy to help others find theirs. PM me! :)

User avatar
johnnyonthespot
Master
Master
Posts: 5229
Joined: 04 Aug 2008, 15:01
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: Citizenship through GF born from GGM before 1948

Postby johnnyonthespot » 08 Nov 2010, 22:19

PS: As the law stands now, a person having an Italian ancestor up to the 2nd degree (grandparent), can apply for naturalization as an Italian citizen after residing legally in Italy for a period of three years. Read carefully the "How To Apply" section on this page http://www.ambwashingtondc.esteri.it/Am ... tadinanza/ ).

Realistically, it would make sense that this law - the 2nd Degree/grandparent part should be easier to reverse in court than the 1948 rule discussed in my previous post. If you could just get it extended to 3rd Degree to cover your great-grandmother...
Carmine

My hobby is finding things. Having found most of my own, I am happy to help others find theirs. PM me! :)

User avatar
longabardi.hasbrouck
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 14
Joined: 08 Nov 2010, 16:51

Re: Citizenship through GF born from GGM before 1948

Postby longabardi.hasbrouck » 09 Nov 2010, 19:30

Thanks for all of the input. I think I understand our situation more clearly now.

I emailed Luigi Paiano regarding this, and finally just heard back from him.
He believes I stand about a 90% chance of winning if I were to take this to court. He pointed out that in his most recent case he won this past July was basically identical to mine. The descendants were awarded citizenship even though their father was born before 1948 from a woman who also lost her citizenship through marriage.
He said he would represent myself, and up to 3 other family members for EUR 3,200.

I have also contacted a few other attorney's, two of which said they would be willing to take my case. I have not asked for a fee from them yet.

Has anyone here worked with Paiano, or know anyone who has? I want to believe his 90% claim, but I also don't want to send him 4 grand all for nothing.

User avatar
johnnyonthespot
Master
Master
Posts: 5229
Joined: 04 Aug 2008, 15:01
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: Citizenship through GF born from GGM before 1948

Postby johnnyonthespot » 09 Nov 2010, 19:53

His name comes up on various boards now and then but I don't recall anyone who had direct experience with him. In fact, as I alluded to, my impression is that there have been only a very small number of these cases to date.

You might inquire at the ExpatsInItaly ( http://expatsinitaly.com/phpbbforum/viewforum.php?f=2 ) forum ...
Carmine

My hobby is finding things. Having found most of my own, I am happy to help others find theirs. PM me! :)

jennabet
Master
Master
Posts: 1038
Joined: 14 Jul 2010, 20:28
Location: Ancestral Homeland - Abruzzo Italy

Re: Citizenship through GF born from GGM before 1948

Postby jennabet » 09 Nov 2010, 21:53

I'm really getting confused on an Italian born woman losing her citizenship if married to a foreigner before 1948.

What about an Italian-American woman born in the USA who inherited Italian citizenship from her Italian born father? This lady is not yet recognized but would she have lost Italian citizenship through marriage to an American in 1946? Or did this apply only to women born in Italy?

User avatar
longabardi.hasbrouck
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 14
Joined: 08 Nov 2010, 16:51

Re: Citizenship through GF born from GGM before 1948

Postby longabardi.hasbrouck » 09 Nov 2010, 22:08

I agree, it is a bit confusing. I THINK that yes, she would have been an Italian citizen because she was born from a male, but yes, she would have lost her citizenship by marrying an American.

I have a phone call planned with a lawyer in Napoli tomorrow or the day after. Perhaps he will charge less. My only concern is that Paiano has actual experience with this issue, whereas this other lawyer most likely does not.

I'll post what we discuss when he calls me.

User avatar
mler
Master
Master
Posts: 1627
Joined: 01 Apr 2006, 00:00

Re: Citizenship through GF born from GGM before 1948

Postby mler » 09 Nov 2010, 22:22

Do check with the expatsinitaly site. I believe some of the members there have experience with Paiano and can give you more information. I tend to think that the odds of success are considerably less than the 90 percent quoted. I have only heard of one instance in which the 1948 ruling was ignored, and that report was only anecdotal. I've not seen any official report of a similar success.

Were I in your situation, I would NOT pursue this through the Italian courts. The Italian legal system moves very slowly, and even if someone was successful in challenging the law, it would have absolutely no impact on your case since Italy does not follow the rule of precedent as does the U.S. Filing lawsuits on behalf of disqualified jure sanguinis applicants is lucrative for lawyers, but I would research this very carefully before expending time, money and energy on what may well be an exercise in futility.

Jenebet, I'm not sure about the answer to your question, but I suspect she retains her Italian citizenship. My gm was born in the U.S. and lost her American citizenship by marrying my Italian gf before the 1922 Cable Act. When my gf naturalized in 1928, she did not reacquire the U.S. citizenship she lost. She naturalized six months after he did. Of course, this is U.S. law we are talking about, but it seems that if she had lost her Italian citizenship after my gf naturalized, she would be without any citizenship during the six month period before she herself naturalized.

jennabet
Master
Master
Posts: 1038
Joined: 14 Jul 2010, 20:28
Location: Ancestral Homeland - Abruzzo Italy

Re: Citizenship through GF born from GGM before 1948

Postby jennabet » 10 Nov 2010, 00:16

.......Jenebet, I'm not sure about the answer to your question, but I suspect she retains her Italian citizenship.......

I suspect she does too but would love to have a confirmation on this. The Italian-American woman in question married a non-Italian American in 1946.

But my own mother, an unrecognized dual Italian-American who inherited Italian citizenship from her father married my father in 1946 who was also an unrecognized dual Italian-American who inherited Italian citizenship from his father. The only reason I pursued my own recognition through my father's line is because I was born prior to 1948. It never occurred to me that my mother my have lost her Italian citizenship by marrying my father.

Again, all the talk in this forum about Italian women losing citizenship upon marriage to a foreigner before 1948 is confusing and I'm beginning to wonder if it's even correct. I seem to think that if she continues to live in Italy, she is still recognized as Italian. But her children born to the foreign faather are not.
Can anyone clarify this with certainty?

User avatar
teddi
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 100
Joined: 14 Sep 2008, 19:40

Re: Citizenship through GF born from GGM before 1948

Postby teddi » 14 Nov 2010, 19:25

Again, all the talk in this forum about Italian women losing citizenship upon marriage to a foreigner before 1948 is confusing and I'm beginning to wonder if it's even correct.

See legge 555/1912 art 10
La donna cittadina che si marita ad uno straniero perde la cittadinanza italiana, sempreché il marito possieda una cittadinanza che per il fatto del matrimonio a lei si comunichi.

User avatar
johnnyonthespot
Master
Master
Posts: 5229
Joined: 04 Aug 2008, 15:01
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: Citizenship through GF born from GGM before 1948

Postby johnnyonthespot » 14 Nov 2010, 19:46

This is one of those subjects that I have lost track of and no longer recall the exact workings...

It seems to me that the Italian law cited means that the woman loses her Italian citizenship only if the laws of the other country cause her to gain the citizenship of her new husband.

In other words, if by marrying an American, she gained US citizenship under US law, then she lost her Italian citizenship under Italian law. So the question is, in what year did merely marrying an American cease to mean automatic US citizenship for the new wife?

Wasn't that part of the 1922 changes in US citizenship law?
Carmine

My hobby is finding things. Having found most of my own, I am happy to help others find theirs. PM me! :)


Return to “Emigration, Immigration, Naturalization and Italian citizenship”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Yahoo [Bot] and 1 guest