No Marriage Certificate

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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DJP1812
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No Marriage Certificate

Postby DJP1812 » 15 Dec 2010, 14:51

Hi all,

I am trying to get everything together for dual citizenship through my paternal line (Father, Grandfather, Great Grandfather) through the consulate in Miami.

I might have a hard time getting a marriage certificate for my Great Grand Parents.

I am going to do a search through NYC Records but have a feeling it will come back not found. It's not on any indexes I know of and I can't find much information at all about my Great Grandmother.

Does anyone know if I can continue with my Dual Citizenship application if the record is not found? If so, what documents would I need to collect?

Thanks as always!

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LoveJesus22
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Re: No Marriage Certificate

Postby LoveJesus22 » 15 Dec 2010, 15:04

I think You Must Get it because this Marriage certificate refers for your Italian Individual Parental....I think also that If you Have A Church One u can Get a State One..

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DJP1812
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Re: No Marriage Certificate

Postby DJP1812 » 15 Dec 2010, 15:34

I'm thinking that might be the case... Just will be very complicated to track down the church...

One can hope though.

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sceaminmonkey
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Re: No Marriage Certificate

Postby sceaminmonkey » 15 Dec 2010, 15:54

I can tell you I tried to hand the NYC consulate a church one on nov 26 2010 and they said no. I dont know about the Miami consulate but i would try to find some sort of record

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Re: No Marriage Certificate

Postby DJP1812 » 15 Dec 2010, 16:16

Thanks for the info! Good to know!

I just ordered a Death Certificate I found online for my GGM hoping that has some information that can help me eventually track down the real license.

Once I receive the death certificate I will be able to validate her last name (hopefully it has it) and then can pay NYC to do a search.

-D

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johnnyonthespot
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Re: No Marriage Certificate

Postby johnnyonthespot » 15 Dec 2010, 16:18

If worst comes to worst, you can try arguing the point that Italian law does not require that a citizen be the product of a recognized marriage; it is entirely possible - even today - to be born to an unmarried mother and be recognized an Italian citizen so long as either the mother (for births after January 1, 1948) or the known father is Italian.

So long as your grandfather's birth certificate lists both his parents with sufficient detail that his father can be identified, it should not be entirely necessary to prove that his mother and father were actually married.

Just my opinion; your mileage may vary.
Carmine

My hobby is finding things. Having found most of my own, I am happy to help others find theirs. PM me! :)

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DJP1812
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Re: No Marriage Certificate

Postby DJP1812 » 15 Dec 2010, 16:24

Thanks Much Carmine!

I hear Miami is not the easiest place... but I can be convincing.

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Re: No Marriage Certificate

Postby jennabet » 15 Dec 2010, 18:12

I agree with Carmine on this.

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KarenChristino
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Re: No Marriage Certificate

Postby KarenChristino » 18 Dec 2010, 22:02

Having finally found my grandparents' civil marriage record, I think one reason they ask for this is that is contains all the stuff they are looking for -- the father's name and mother's maiden name for both parties. The marriage record that I got from the church did not include this information. Obviously their birth records will be older and if they are in the U.S. there's a greater chance of errors. So it gives you a good back-up.

My grandparents' record was not in any index and the NYC Archives did not find it in their 2-year search. However once I came up with the exact date they found it for me. I was also told that the licenses were listed separately. So I think that there's a chance that sometimes people applied and got married in the church but didn't file the paperwork later with the City. And I guess they don't automatically look in the licenses section. (??)

Remember that ItalianGen and others do say that some of their indices are incomplete. If you don't succeed with the Archives, I'll bet that the Family History Library may have microfilm copies of those records that you can search yourself. (Though I can't find the listing at the moment -- I have a lot of trouble with the FamilySearch.org site since they changed their search engine!)

Karen

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Re: No Marriage Certificate

Postby sforza » 19 Dec 2010, 08:43

Yes, NYC archives definitely not complete - some records can be found in an online search at familysearch (LDS) that don't show in the index. I've even found birth certs that aren't anywhere in the archives, even once I've located a cert #.
In scrolling through several years of marriage certs microfilm at the NYC archives in my so far fruitless attempt to locate my GGF's marriage cert, I've also noticed that some churches that were in confirmed existence at the time went years without reporting any marriages. (Church name is at bottom of the cert, at least for some boroughs in the early 20th c.) I imagine that thousands, if not tens of thousands of marriages went unreported.
Marriage licenses weren't required in NY until 1907.
In terms of the info the consulate wants, yes, they want all certs long-form - ie, containing all info provided, including parents' names if such were included. Marriage certs are another way to link generations. But Carmine's point is well taken - as far as requirements go, there is nothing in jus sanguinis requiring legitimacy. And you can link generations through long-form birth certs.


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