Pls. Help: Munic Archvs docs corrections. NYC: App Rejected

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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JavaisLife
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Pls. Help: Munic Archvs docs corrections. NYC: App Rejected

Postby JavaisLife » 12 Jan 2011, 22:15

My original posting: http://italiangenealogy.tardio.com/Foru ... 18371.html

I applied for Citizenship back on Sept 10th through GGF > GF > M > Self.

I have a few misspellings on my GGM/GGF marriage certificate. And my
GF BC - maiden name of mother (non in direct line) is spelled wrong. Both of these documents are from the Municipal Archives (before 1910).

I had a letter from the Municipal Archives director stating that the documents cannot be changed. These documents did not help.

I also had a very minor misspelling on my GF marriage certificate - from Vital Records first name "Francesco" is spelled missing the "s". Which I'm pissed I didn't catch, for I had that document corrected.

The letter I received states:
"Please provide an official statement form a Court Judge or Vital Statistic Officer w/ correct information w/ regards to names, last names, date and place of birth ...."

I have a letter from a lawyer that states documents from before 1910 cannot be changed from The Supreme Court.

I do not know what to do. Suggestions?

I'm also being told to pick up my entire application, and not just submit updated documents.

Thank you,
Marie

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Re: NYC - application rejected. Due to docs from Munic Archi

Postby JavaisLife » 12 Jan 2011, 22:36

Plus - the misspellings are not even in the direct line.

Anyone successful in changing documents from the Municipal Archives?

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Re: NYC - application rejected. Due to docs from Munic Archi

Postby beauac » 12 Jan 2011, 23:03

I am very sorry you are having troubles. But I don't understand everything. So they have accepted your application in September and you were waiting for a yes or no on recognition, and now they have said no due to the small errors? Then why did they take it and not tell you that it needed to be corrected at the meeting in September?

I thought they know it is impossible to correct things from the Municipal archives. How are other people getting their citizenship? Almost every document from every immigrant has many mistakes?

It seems to me the rules and attitudes of the Italian officials are changing. I had a meeting a while back and I felt very unwelcome by the Italians there like they do not want to give the citizenship to anyone. I am contemplating now to give up because their demands are too f'n outrageous.

Once again I am very sorry, I think you were expecting something like a letter of recognition. Do you still have a chance to correct and try again? What does it mean to come in and pick up your application? I look forward to hearing more about your case.

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Re: NYC - application rejected. Due to docs from Munic Archi

Postby JavaisLife » 12 Jan 2011, 23:32

Hi Beauac -

Yes, I submitted my full application in Sept. I was waiting for recognition - but, I got a letter today saying I needed to supply more information and a certified letter or Court Judgement regarding the Municipal Archive documents.

The misspellings are mostly in the non-direct line names. Last name (maiden name) spelled wrong.

I'm not sure how to change misspellings from the Municipal Archives - this is what I need help with.

Suggestions Anyone?!?!!!

I have a change to try again, of course - but I can only do it w/ changes made to these documents from the Municipal Archives. Which from the lawyer I spoke w/ I couldn't change documents from before 1910. So, there must be some other sort of ruling I need.

Marie

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Re: Pls. Help: Munic Archvs docs corrections. NYC: App Rejec

Postby beauac » 13 Jan 2011, 22:36

I thought it was established that one cannot under any circumstances change any document from the municipal archives. So how could you reapply? Are they asking you to do something they know is impossible in order to not have to bluntly deny you? I also thought everybody was saying that people in the non direct line are not important. Are the rules changing? Seems to me they do not want to give citizenship out so freely like they used to???? Or am I missing something? I hope some of the other members will write something.

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Re: Pls. Help: Munic Archvs docs corrections. NYC: App Rejec

Postby kontessa » 14 Jan 2011, 07:12

beauac wrote:Are they asking you to do something they know is impossible in order to not have to bluntly deny you?

As harsh as the consulate in NYC is with applicants, imo, I don't believe that is is the case here (at least not yet). I do think that they make the process next to impossible, perhaps to cut down on number of applicants, but they have given the op an opportunity to try and produce something rather than given an outright refusal. (Don't think they care much if the task is nearly impossible!) If a rejection is the eventual outcome, they'll probably dish it out just as easily as an acceptance. Remember, the op informed them that amending the records wasn't possible, so they gave her instructions to follow to rectify the problem. The solution or suggestion they made may prove to be nearly impossible, but time will tell. Hopefully, she will be able to produce something that meets their demands.

(Just want to add, that I do think that the consulate in NYC is ridiculous with the level of perfection that they require to submit an application, and agree that at times their expectations are impossible for many to meet. I feel sorry for everyone that has to use their services, and hope that eventually the op has a successful outcome.)

beauac wrote:I also thought everybody was saying that people in the non direct line are not important. Are the rules changing?


Unless I am not reading the op's write-up correctly, the documents were NOT out of the direct-line, but there were misspellings of names within a direct-line document. Perhaps the names that were misspelled were individuals that weren't in the direct bloodline, but they were contained in the direct-line documents, right? (BTW, an issue made out of an 's' left out of the name 'Francesco' is the level of ridiculous mentioned previously.)

Surely these comments do nothing to help the op solve her problems, though, and I apologize for going off topic. Good luck and best wishes to the op for an eventual resolution!! :)

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Re: Pls. Help: Munic Archvs docs corrections. NYC: App Rejec

Postby DeFilippis78 » 14 Jan 2011, 17:02

This news stinks!!! They will turn you down for errors on non direct mistakes?? I agree with beau, this is ridiculous and am ready to jump ship.

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Re: Pls. Help: Munic Archvs docs corrections. NYC: App Rejec

Postby Drew927 » 14 Jan 2011, 20:28

Wow, how dissapointing! My appt is in six weeks and I'm getting very nervous. Where can you get atty who handles these matters?

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Re: Pls. Help: Munic Archvs docs corrections. NYC: App Rejec

Postby UpstateNY » 14 Jan 2011, 20:49

Hello, I may be wrong, but it seems like they are not asking you to correct these documents but to provide a document from a judge stating the information requested? I thought I recall seeing a thread on here related to this by someone else recently.

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Re: Pls. Help: Munic Archvs docs corrections. NYC: App Rejec

Postby beauac » 14 Jan 2011, 22:12

I hope some more light can be shed on this because if it is true that municipal documents need to be changed (which they can't) then I am out of the game. If it is only a matter of having some judge give me a letter maybe I can keep playing.

Italian authorities are :roll: . Just give us Italians in America the darn citizenship. Italy today is so loaded with the 3world you would think they would be trying to get us back any way possible.

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Re: Pls. Help: Munic Archvs docs corrections. NYC: App Rejec

Postby sceaminmonkey » 17 Jan 2011, 10:09

I have heard of this letter form a court judge before and was attempting to get one in the past but cant seem to find out how to go about it. My heart is beating out of my chest because Now I expect a letter since my case is similar . I am curious as to what you will do and how you will go about it. did you contact them or did they contact you? Marie what will you do?

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Re: NYC - application rejected. Due to docs from Munic Archi

Postby Donald66 » 17 Jan 2011, 16:08

JavaisLife wrote:Plus - the misspellings are not even in the direct line.

Anyone successful in changing documents from the Municipal Archives?


Marie,

How prevalent were the errors? We had errors on our documents, but most were limited to the last letter of our surname.

We had our appointment 10/29/10 & Emilio didnt seem too concerned with the misspellings @ that time.

Ciao,
Donald

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Re: Pls. Help: Munic Archvs docs corrections. NYC: App Rejec

Postby mler » 17 Jan 2011, 16:16

Ask the municipal archives people to send you a letter stating that their documents cannot be corrected even if the documents contain errors. Then go back to the consulate with this letter.

If they give you more grief, explain to them nicely that you are applying through your ....... line, and although it would be nice if all the documents in the non-Italian line were perfect, this perfection is only important from a genealogical perspective and has absolutely no bearing on your eligibility for citizenship recognition. Be polite BUT firm.

A little story...my citizenship was recognized five-six years ago. Our application was sitting in the NYC files, apparently stalled. Then my husband went in (he is a naturalized US citizen and this was my son's and my application). He asked to see our file and wanted to know exactly why so little had been done with it for more than a year. He was polite but insistent. Our citizenship letters arrived only a few weeks later.

I think my husband's approach was key. If you qualify and you have the documents to prove it, you are entitled to have your citizenship recognized. I think too many people go into their meeting with an attitude that is either too brash or too subservient. Be businesslike, matter-of-fact, and state your case clearly and unemotionally. They seem to respect that.

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Re: Pls. Help: Munic Archvs docs corrections. NYC: App Rejec

Postby DeFilippis78 » 17 Jan 2011, 16:37

Good tips as usual Emily! Your the best!

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Re: Pls. Help: Munic Archvs docs corrections. NYC: App Rejec

Postby JavaisLife » 21 Jan 2011, 22:13

Last week I received a letter that I had to change municipal archives documents, or get a letter.

Now - this was one week before my mother and my brother had their appointments (which they had today).

I took a few days off of work last week - so I could live at the Municipal Archives and Marriage Records department downtown. I had a second application w/ all copies of birth/death/marriage from my GGF down to self - both sides of the family.

The document I needed to change was a Marriage Record from 1904, there were errors on the Mothers name (non line) yet this is a required document for the application, so this needed to be "changed" or "corrected".

They had to create a new document to be placed in the system. Which they did - it took over an hour. So they asked if I could come back the following first thing in the morning (8:30am). I had to supply certified documents for all the new required fields that are displayed in the system, than the limited records from 1904 (older docs showed less information, for example marriage parties parental information for example, etc). I had the new document created and changed in an hour.

Now, how was this possible? I had a letter from the Italian Consulate requesting that I have this document changed. I do not believe that this would have been done without some sort of goverment request (and pleading).

The Birth Certificate was different, that I had to send to Vital Records - which I am still waiting to hear back from. Ms Timbers handles those cases - Since I had less than 1 week to change the birth certificate I sought out other options. Which was visiting theMunicipal Archives every day for 4 days. They said no to all of my requests. I finally got someone to have Mr Kenn Kobb meet with me. I suggest you bypass the bshit and just ask to schedule an appointment with Mr K Kobb directly. He's super nice and easy going.

I, yet again - supplied documentation to show what the errors were, and what they should be. He created me the required letter that I needed. With no hassle - which he certified and I had apostilled and translated. The director Lenore will not do this for you, ask to speak to her supervisor who is Mr Ken Kobb.

Lastly, my brother and mother had their appointment this morning at 9am & 9:30 respectively. They were taken in together - as I went to a coffee shop around the corner. Nearing 10am my brother called me, and asked that I joined the meeting, for I put both their applications together and it would be quicker if I was there.

I ran over and noticed that in an hours time - they only got to the USCIS section of no record! The rest of the application went through very smoothly. He even brought up my application and attached it with the updated document which I used for my brother & mothers application. So, even though I requested for a new appointment - I was able to piggy back off theirs (which I did not once ask for or mention my own application - aside from saying, I applied hence why I knew to change certain documents, etc).

We had a very successful application submittal - which he said that the full application looks very solid we would hear shortly. We were there from 9:00 am until 12:30! wowzers.

Side note - I went to see two different lawyers last week - they were NO help. I suggest bringing the letter you receive (if you do) from the consulate and work with the records department to correct any errors.


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