Success in Newark!!.............almost. (long post, warning)

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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JPMessina44
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Success in Newark!!.............almost. (long post, warning)

Postby JPMessina44 » 31 Jan 2011, 22:14

My appointment was at 2:30pm, so I arrived approx 20 minutes early. Was greeted by somebody at the front desk, who told me to grab a seat and relax while I waited for Carmen to come out and meet with me.

The waiting room was completely empty with very little movement in the back area as well. I saw a total of 4 people during my approx 1 hour there.

Finally was called in by Carmen, greeting in the waiting area. Very pleasant lady, good communicator despite some lag in English, but overall she is an Italian, and I blame myself more cause I should learn the language. Overall, first impression was that she was not imposing, very sweet, down to earth person. Super friendly.

We sit down at her desk in the office and she reconfirms my line of descent, which is my GGFather, Gfather, Father, and me.

We start by giving the great grandfather's birth certificate. She reviews the translation, goes over the form and reviews all information and writes down certain facts in her notebook. Circling things she plans to go back to and review as I give her more documents from the rest of my line.

Next is the marriage document between my great grandfather and great grandmother. She reviews this document, taking notes on that we was married in 1909, the location and to whom. She went ahead and circled my great grandmothers name and the name that he used (Paolo.)

Next was my great grandfathers death certificate. This proved to be my only issue with the entire application. On his birth certificate, his date of birth was listed at June 12, 1888. The death from NYC says June 11, 1888. One day!!! She wrote this down on her notebook and kept moving along. I also gave her other documents showing that he has always used June 11, 1888....his WW1 and WW2 registrations, 1930 census, etc etc...we move on.

She asks for the Naturalization documents. BTW my grandfather was born in 1927. She reviews these documents and write on her notepad 1925 as far as my great grandfathers naturalization. I panic because that would make me ineligible. I correct her and let her know that he submitted first papers in 1925, but didnt official renounce his citizenship and become a US citizen until 1931 (4 year AFTER the birth of my grandfather.) She apologizes, and crosses out 1925, adding 1931. Crisis averted.

She asks for grandfathers birth.....all clear.
Grandfathers marriage. Clear.

We joked about how I go my name Joseph Paul....named after my father and great grandfather (Paul) and gradnfather Joseph.

Strange and out of sequence, she asks for my birth certificate. 'Okay?" I I gave her my birth certificate and the names did not match up with my parentscause she was comparing that to my grandfathers marriage certificate.....I told her the names won't match up cause there is still another generation between grandfather and myself (in a very nice way)...I offered her my fathers birth and marriage certificate. She reviews, takes her note, crosses out the original error she mae and apologized for the oversight and thanked me for being proactive and paying close attention. SI think she knew I was organized, I was offering information, memorized dates and information in case I was asked spur of the moment, so I think this definitely helped and would highly recommend making sure you know everything you can about your file.

Fathermarriasge and birth clear.

Now she picks back up my birth....she asked me if I am positive it is long-form. I said yes, and prepped my recepit from NY State in case she pryed further. Nothing else said, translations looked good. Moved on from there.

Next asked for myh application, she quickly glanced at the applicantion, hands it back to me nd tells me to sign off on it and put todays date (1/31/2011.) I'm think this is easy, no real issues, perfect. She says I'll be right back, leaving mein her office, wasn't sure where she went.

About 10 minutes later (felt like 3 hours), she comes back in and says my application looks perfect, except for a few things:

1. My great grandfather Italian birth says June 12, 1888 and NYC death says June 11th, 1888.
2. Fathers middle name on marriage has J, and birth has no middle name.
3. Grandfather has Lou as middle on marriage but nothing on his birth or death.
4. greatgrandfather mothers maiden is Battiato and on his death says Rarchetta? No clue why.
5. Grandfather was Guiseppe and death says Joseph.
6. GGPA was born Paolo and death says Paul.

All in all not, too bad. She tells me that she will let 2-6 slide, but she cannot let the 1 day difference in birth slide. I asked her if it was possible that he was born in June 11, 1888 but wasn't registered in Sant'Antonio until one day later, June 12th. She said yes it is possible but there's still a one day issue there and she cannot submit it to Sicily with that error as she would worry it would get kicked back. There's a slight chance that it could be somebody else (that and Im sure the maiden name didn't help either, cause it was Rarchettta vs Battiato on the Italian birth. In a last effort, I brought back up the fact that he used June 11 on everything else, including naturalization documents., She said she knows and knows that the naturalization documents cannot be amended, otherwise she would ask for that as well. She said Italian birth certification is the document we need to base the meeting off of and "they are never wrong." Realzing this is a losing battle, I wrote down the one amendment I need and plan to go to NYC Dept of Health tomorrow.

She said if I can, get the maiden name and Paul changed back to Paolo on the death. I checked with NYC and the maiden name and birth is easy cause that is off of the Italian Birth (which I need to translate forNYC to English.).....the name from Paolo back to Paul (which she said IF i could, will take me to get that fixed thru the hospital with their official letterhead or from the doctor from my great grandfathers death in 1954. Yeah, gonna go ahead and skip that cause Paolo and Paul she said was okay cause "it is typical italian to english name change."

All in all it was a good day, a little disappointed over the one day issue between the birth and death records...but noentheless if thats the only error, I guess it isn't too bad. I'm sure he was born on June 11th and was just registered 1 day later, but nonetheless, Carmen wants the documents to match and if she feels that will strengthen my case, then no problem.

Lastly, I asked her to explain the process....she told me the birth record from me will be sent to Sicily, and she will create a profile for me in her system once I get the document amended. She was nice enough to explain the process, which ive heard other consulates leave you in the dark with these things. She said all othger documents (besides my birth record) will be kept at Newark Consulate in their files. She told me that once sent to Sicily, it usually takes 1-2 months, before they will call me back in for my passport. She said by summer I should be able to travel with my Italian Passport and gave me a big smile.

She continued to do her work, while I packed up all my stuff (she asked me to hang onto all of my documents, so she gave me everything back>0 I was tring to rush and pack cause I was at this point sitting in her office and I know she was stating to tend to other work.....she said no rush at all, take your time and relax. Very nice, and didn't rush me out. We shhok hands, and I walked out by myself.

That's my story....it came down to ONE DAY on my greatgranfathers birth vs death records, and that is what it between me and my Italian citizenship.

Sorry for the long rant, wanted to be as open as I can,....hopefully this will help others down the road. Had a good experience in Newark, people were friendly, Carmen was nice, friendly, took the time to explain the process and also facts abou the origina of my name....Italian is Giuseppe vs Guiseppe in America. etc etc......she gave me a specific number to call and said I won't need to make another appointment, just called a number and come in to drop off my amended document.

Thaks for everybody's help...wasn't the outcome I wanted but wasn't bad at all. On to NYC Dept of Health and Mental Hygeien tomorrow afternoon while I have a day off from work.

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Re: Success in Newark!!.............almost. (long post, warn

Postby jennabet » 01 Feb 2011, 00:48

She is absolutely correct about the birth date records from Italy never being wrong. We have a 99 page family history booklet prepared by a "geneologist" that is full of inaccurate dates and places because nobody ever bothered to check with Italy.

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Re: Success in Newark!!.............almost. (long post, warn

Postby JPMessina44 » 01 Feb 2011, 02:28

I hear ya....I was disappointed but I'd rather her be tougher. I'm trying to be a part of her country, and even though it is a right that I have, as I would expect from the US....100% accuracy is important. (I can't believe I missed that on the Birth vs Death, even if it was one day.

Plus she was super nice and really took the time to explain and cover all bases, so I can't worry too much. Things could have been a lot worse and way more errors.....one day off on birth vs death between Italy and US documents, its cool.

I'm not looking forward to the 5 week wait time for corrections thru NYC Dept of Helth and Mental though. Thats 5 more weeks of worrying about my original documents coming back in one piece and then another 2 months for Passport invite......

Nonetheless, I'll keep plugging away and bright note says 99% of my application is approved and "accepted."

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Re: Success in Newark!!.............almost. (long post, warn

Postby musaccosteve » 01 Feb 2011, 03:13

JP and Forum Members,

Based on what you wrote JP, I think I have a big problem. I am preparing documentation to support dual citizenship via my grandfather.

My grandfather, according to his Italy birth certificate was born 3/4/1874. However, he lists his date of birth on several documents as 3/8/1874 or 3/10/1874 and his death certificate date of birth is recorded as 3/11/1874. His marriage certificate from Italy also shows that he was born on 3/4/1874. Fortunately, his birth certificate and death certificate record both of parent's names as the same. Will I be able to amend my grandfather's death certificate to 3/4/1874 with the County of San Diego based on the Italy birth and marriage birth certificates.

I have a bigger problem with my grandmother. Her date of birth from Italy is recorded as 3/3/1876 on both her birth and marriage certificates, and her birth date on her death certificate is recorded as March URK (i.e., actually with these letters), 1878. In several other documents, she lists her birth date as 1878 with the month of March but on different days of that month. I don't see how it would be possible to have her death certificate amended based on this degree of discrepancy, especially since her death certificate does not list the names of her parents.

I do have a certified copy of the 1930 Census and the ship manifest when my grandmother came to the U.S. in 1915 with her four children. My grandfather came to the U.S. in 1906. If I need to get the birth certificates for these four children, I could, if required, request them from my grandparents commune, thereby confirming her identity. I am hoping that I don't have to go this route.

Please let me know your thoughts.

Thank you,

Steve

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Re: Success in Newark!!.............almost. (long post, warn

Postby sceaminmonkey » 01 Feb 2011, 03:54

Im happy you did not have to go through nyc! sent a PM take a look!

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Re: Success in Newark!!.............almost. (long post, warn

Postby JPMessina44 » 01 Feb 2011, 04:04

Steve - I wouldn't be too worried with regards to your grandmother, since you are not going thru her for your citizenship. Anybody else correct me if I am wrong, byut if you have an original, signed Birth Certificate, you can get the birth and death amended. For NYC (CALI may vary), you need to give the Vital Bureau an original copy of the birth and death to (whichever is correct) to help fix the other errors. There will be an application to complete and if you use an Italian document, you must translate into English, make a copy, and have the original notarized.

The grandfather will be an issue and definitely will need to be amended. Esp since this is your direct line. I got pegged for 1 day, you definitely will for 3 and 4 year differences. Yes, you will be able to use the Italian documents to amend the Death certificate date of birth. This is exactly what I need to do in NYC......I'm using the Italian birth record (translated into English), submitting my original copy of the birth, photocopy, signed copies of my passport/License, and application to get this fixed.

I don't think it will help with the four children, (I had proof from 10 children) and it didnt work because "Italian documents" are always right and your documents don't match. From what I hear, Newark is usual relaxed on these issues, I am not sure how San Diego is, but I would assume this would get pegged. Again, if you not going thru your grandmother, you might be okay cause you don't need to prove anything with her, other than the marriage certificate which is the only date of birth that the consulate will see anyway.

Sorry for the long post back, nonetheless, yes you will need to get the document amended and you can and should use your Italian documents to do so.

Might be worth getting the gma done, in case, they ask for it but not necessary and might not be worth the leg work for you. Your call on that....

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Re: Success in Newark!!.............almost. (long post, warn

Postby JPMessina44 » 01 Feb 2011, 04:12

screamin - thx for the PM, appreciate the insight. I PMed you back.....

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Re: Success in Newark!!.............almost. (long post, warn

Postby musaccosteve » 01 Feb 2011, 13:27

First of all, thank you JP. Also, congratulations on almost crossing the finishing line. :)

I am feeling a lot better about my situation after reading your post. What really helps in getting my grandfather's death certificate amended, as I noted before, is that on both this document and his birth certificate his parents are recorded. His christian name on the birth certificate is recorded as Domenico and on the death certificate it is recorded as Dominick. Also, his father's name on the birth certificate is recorded as Michele and on the death certificate it is recorded as Michael. I probably need to have these discrepancies amended on the death certificate as well. I don't think I will need to have the document translated because it records all pertinent information in both Italian and English. Having a copy of the original birth certificate notarized makes perfect sense. Your thoughts. ....

I am not going to deal with my grandmother's discrepancies. I will just present her birth certificate and my grandparent's marriage certificate as proof of lineage as well as documentation required on my father and mother.

Have a great day,

Steve



JPMessina44 wrote:Steve - I wouldn't be too worried with regards to your grandmother, since you are not going thru her for your citizenship. Anybody else correct me if I am wrong, byut if you have an original, signed Birth Certificate, you can get the birth and death amended. For NYC (CALI may vary), you need to give the Vital Bureau an original copy of the birth and death to (whichever is correct) to help fix the other errors. There will be an application to complete and if you use an Italian document, you must translate into English, make a copy, and have the original notarized.

The grandfather will be an issue and definitely will need to be amended. Esp since this is your direct line. I got pegged for 1 day, you definitely will for 3 and 4 days[u] differences. Yes, you will be able to use the Italian documents to amend the Death certificate date of birth. This is exactly what I need to do in NYC......I'm using the Italian birth record (translated into English), submitting my original copy of the birth, photocopy, signed copies of my passport/License, and application to get this fixed.

I don't think it will help with the four children, (I had proof from 10 children) and it didnt work because "Italian documents" are always right and your documents don't match. From what I hear, Newark is usual relaxed on these issues, I am not sure how San Diego is, but I would assume this would get pegged. Again, if you not going thru your grandmother, you might be okay cause you don't need to prove anything with her, other than the marriage certificate which is the only date of birth that the consulate will see anyway.

Sorry for the long post back, nonetheless, yes you will need to get the document amended and you can and should use your Italian documents to do so.

Might be worth getting the gma done, in case, they ask for it but not necessary and might not be worth the leg work for you. Your call on that....

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Re: Success in Newark!!.............almost. (long post, warn

Postby sforza » 01 Feb 2011, 13:59

Congrats!
I am using Newark in mid-2011 and have spoken to Carmen by phone a few times and she is a lovely and reasonable person. Your post confirms everything I've learned about Newark's approach - the expectation of consistency on direct line documents. I am in the process of amending eight (8!) direct line docs between my parents who are each applying. In general, I think if there are thorny problems that are not resolvable before the appointment, the more together the rest of the app is, the better off you will be.
Again, congratulations!

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Re: Success in Newark!!.............almost. (long post, warn

Postby mler » 01 Feb 2011, 15:12

Newark is indeed a great consulate, but as someone who was there several years ago, I'm a bit surprised at some of the things that are now considered issues. When I applied, I had three name discrepancies--mine, my dad's and my grandfather's.

I legally changed my name so that I could amend my bc to conform with the name I used throughout my life. I simply changed my father's name on MY birth certificate. (My bc and his bc now matched BUT his name was different on his marriage certificate--not an issue.)

My grandfather's name discrepancy was of the "Michele/Michael"/"Domenico/Dominick" variety; that is, it was an English translation of the Italian name. I did absolutely nothing with this, and it was ok. Today, it might be a problem.

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Re: Success in Newark!!.............almost. (long post, warn

Postby musaccosteve » 02 Feb 2011, 00:52

Mler and Forum Members,

Since I have to amend my father's birth certificate and death certificate as well as my grandfather's death certificate because of substantive discrepancies anyway, I will also try to have the "Michele/Michael"/"Domenico/Dominick" discrepancies amended at the same time. It might save me a headache down the road, especially after hearing some of the concerns noted in the forum. I am wondering if the issue of amending these types of discrepancies is a problem with the county of vital statistics. Your thoughts .....

mler wrote: My grandfather's name discrepancy was of the "Michele/Michael"/"Domenico/Dominick" variety; that is, it was an English translation of the Italian name. I did absolutely nothing with this, and it was ok. Today, it might be a problem.


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