Discrepancies - got all my documents!

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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jake8078
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Discrepancies - got all my documents!

Postby jake8078 » 16 Feb 2011, 21:45

Hi All,

Here's my first post. I submitted a request a year ago through myitaliancitizenship.com for my great grandparents (both from Bari, Turi) and their marriage certificate. My information on my great grandmother was limited, but I had my great grandfather's birth date down and both their locations. Anyways, I got the certificates in the mail a few months ago, and just finally now managed to get all US documents.

There are several discrepancies, but I will only list the ones I believe to be most important. According to the 2 birth certificates and the marriage certificate from Italy, the following is established:

Vito Ventrella:
Born in Turi 23 January 1891
Father: Giovanni Ventrella
Mother: Vita Antonia Labate

Angela Rosa Valentini:
Born in Turi 5 May 1890
Father: Francesco Valentini
Mother: Vita Caterina Pasciolla

Marriage Certificate:
Date: 12 August 1912
Place: Turi
Husband: Vito Ventrella
Age of husband: Anni ventuno (20)
Wife: Angela Rosa Valentini
Age of wife: Anni ventidue (22)



Major discrepancies with US documentation:

1.) Angela's DOB is listed as 26 May 1889 (almost an entire year off), on both her death certificate and declaration of intent (for citizenship)

2.) Vito's DOB is listed as 24 January 1891 (1 day off) on both the declaration of intent, petition for naturalization. On his death certificate it's listed as 21 January 1891.

3.) Vito's father is listed as Anthony Ventrella (as opposed to Giovanni) on his death certificate.

4.) Angela's father is listed as Frank Valentino (instead of Valentini) on her death certificate) and Catherine Passhal on her Death Certificate.

So I have 3 last names for Angela (Valentini, Valentino, Valentina) and her DOB is very different between Italy and the 2 documents here.

For Vito, I have 3 DOB's, and two different first names for his Father.


Does anyone think it's possible that the town in Italy pulled the wrong records, at least for Angela? These are forms that were filled out, rather than original documents, so it's impossible to tell how the archivists put this data together.

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JavaisLife
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Re: Discrepancies - got all my documents!

Postby JavaisLife » 16 Feb 2011, 21:56

Mostly likely the discrepancies happened on the US documents.

My documents had all sorts of errors. When you read through the forum, you'll find out that almost everyone has had to make some sort of changes to their documents. Especially if the documents have had generated information on them. Which causes spellings and errors to happen all the time.

I suggest starting the process to making amendments on all US documents that are needed. For the NYC Consulate, try to correct all errors. Even if a date is off by one day, that will need to be corrected.

on my GF death certificate they listed his year of birth as 1005 instead of 1905. Seriously, "1005"?!?!

Good luck!

Where is your appointment?

Marie

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Re: Discrepancies - got all my documents!

Postby jake8078 » 16 Feb 2011, 22:09

Thanks for your response Marie, I did call my state's vital records office today and get information on the process to make amendments. I need to present as much information as possible to make my case. So I figured I would start with verifying the accuracy of the documents I received from Italy. Do you think those discrepancies I mentioned are entirely possible and that the documents I received from Italy are most likely accurate?

I will be going to the NYC consulate, as I live in CT.

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Re: Discrepancies - got all my documents!

Postby JavaisLife » 16 Feb 2011, 22:17

The way the Consulate works - the Italian Documents are the ones that are accurate. So you work you way back to those.

1) You'll need to get your Italian documents translated into English. There are many people who can do that for you. I mentioned two people I have used Simone and Gabrielle, both are very good.

2) Then, you'll need to submit go to the corrections office for Vital Records and fill out the application for corrections, etc.

If any of your documents are from the Municipal Archives, you'll want 2 letters both from the director.

1) stating that the documents cannot be changed.
2) stating what the errors are, and what they should be - you can look for my post on the forum. I am unsure how to do it in CT, but I've gone through the process in NYC.

Whatever changes you need to get done - go in person. If you need to write something, e-mail so at least you can have record that you've been corresponding. You can't show record of a phone call (that, and no one really helps you through the phone).

With NYC - you'll want to make all changes that you can make. Any spelling errors, any americanized names back to the Italian version. Ship manifests and Census reports from NARA.

The Naturalization Petition, from my understand cannot be changed or amended. So, I wouldn't focus too much on that.

Good luck!
Marie

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Re: Discrepancies - got all my documents!

Postby kontessa » 17 Feb 2011, 09:31

Also...You don't mention which ancestor's line you are using. It may not matter much since NYC sometimes asks for documents from both sides anyway, but you did mention mistakes in both sets of naturalization documents. Since you have time and are beginning some amendments, why not email or fax the comune for a 'positivo-negativo' type statement? The statement is simply just the original comune confirming that there wasn't an idividual with the same name as your ancestor born on the date in question. The mistakes in naturalization records cannot be changed, and since this could become a problem in NYC, it's better to be prepared with some evidence to counter their claims. Some applicants have used this successfully, others haven't needed it. It really is up to you whether or not you think that it might help your case.

(BTW, I wouldn't pay a service to obtain this document for you, either. There may already be a template online, or ask for assistance with the translation of your request.)

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Re: Discrepancies - got all my documents!

Postby jake8078 » 17 Feb 2011, 12:49

Thanks everyone for your help.

Kontessa, I'm going through my GGF, Vito Ventrella's line. That's a great suggestion, to get a confirmation statement. Unfortunately, my family no longer speaks Italian, and I have not yet begun studying (which I absolutely intend to). I can speak Spanish fairly well, and have spent time in Spain so I think it may come somewhat easy given the similarities.

Anyways, I'm looking at the website for the comune di turi and found the office I'm looking for:

http://www.comune.turi.ba.it/default.aspx?Id=64

However, it does not list an address or fax number I could use to contact them. Would anyone be able to be of some help locating this? Thanks!

Best,
Jake

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Re: Discrepancies - got all my documents!

Postby JavaisLife » 17 Feb 2011, 13:36

Hi Jake,

You'll mail a letter to them, including a self addressed stamped envelope. I brought along one of these letters, and I found it to help. See further below ...

Also, I suggest when you do make the amendments to your documents, you may want to purchase a second copy of each document. Just in case at a later point you need even further changes made, after you have submitted your application. This removed the need to recollect your application and makes making changes easier. It obviously make the process more expensive, but it also removes the stress of "what if they loose my document" during the correction/amendment process.

The document below I am copying from another forum, at this URL:
http://italiancitizenship.freeforums.or ... t1042.html

----

Ufficio dello Stato Civile

Comune di COMUNE

Physical Address
12345 {CAP} COMUNE XX {province)
Italia


Egregi Signori,


mi chiamo LASTNAME FIRSTNAME, vivo in COUNTRY ma ho origini italiane e sto cercando di ottenere la cittadinanza italiana.

Per questo avrei gentilmente bisogno del Vostro aiuto: vorrei sapere se qualcuno con il nome di LASTNAME FIRSTNAME – che è il nome di mio/mia {my masculine/my feminine} RELATION – risulta essere nato nel comune di COMUNE il XX aprile dell’anno XXXX {wrong date}. Il problema è che su alcuni dei suoi documenti americani/canadesi/australiani è riportata questa data, mentre la vera data di nascita è il XX aprile XXXX {correct date}. Quindi avrei bisogno della conferma che nessun LASTNAME FIRSTNAME è nato a COMUNE il XX aprile XXXX {wrong date}.

Vi chiedo quindi gentilmente di inviare al seguente indirizzo la documentazione che confermi che nessun LASTNAME FIRSTNAME è nato a COMUNE il XX aprile XXXX {wrong date}:

Your Full Postal Address Here

Per eventuali chiarimenti o domande potete contattarmi al mio indirizzo di posta elettronica: email@email.com


Chiaramente, qualora ci fossero spese da sostenere, Vi prego di comunicarmelo e sarà mia premura inviarvi quanto dovuto a stretto giro di posta.

Vi ringrazio in anticipo per la Vostra cortesia ed il Vostro prezioso aiuto.

Cordiali saluti,

Your Name Here

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Re: Discrepancies - got all my documents!

Postby kontessa » 17 Feb 2011, 13:43

Searched for 'anagrafe' in the Italian white pages and found this for Turi:
Comune Ufficio Anagrafe e Stato Civile

70015 Noci (BA) Via Sansonetti Gianbattistatel:

* 080 4979505

Anyone feel free to correct me if this is wrong! It's in the province of Bari, right? You could look as well, just google 'Italian white pages' (or 'paginebianche.it) and put in whatever office you're looking for. Didn't see any fax number or any kind of address on the link you posted, btw.

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musaccosteve
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Re: Discrepancies - got all my documents!

Postby musaccosteve » 17 Feb 2011, 13:43

Phone number found on right hand corner of homepage of the commune is as follows: 080 4517511.

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Re: Discrepancies - got all my documents!

Postby kontessa » 17 Feb 2011, 13:50

musaccosteve wrote:Phone number found on right hand corner of homepage of the commune is as follows: 080 4517511.


Ha, ha, ha...your're right!! :lol:

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Re: Discrepancies - got all my documents!

Postby jake8078 » 17 Feb 2011, 15:10

Wow, I'm blown away by all the kind help and support on this forum! Thanks everyone for your help.

I did notice the phone number on that page, but it's for the entire web site, and I think it actually is to contact a web master. I also don't speak Italian so I need to find either an address, e-mail, or fax. The address that you posted, Kontessa, looks pretty promising. Yes, it is in the provice of bari. I had tried google.it for the address but it didn't turn up. That site for the white pages should be very helpful.

Thanks for the template and the link to the source, Marie. I'll submit these today to the Comune Ufficio Anagrafe e Stato Civile.

I read your experience at your appointment, Marie. Thanks for such a detailed write-up, it was very informative. I am confident that through this board I'll be able to work through these problems / discrepancies.

Best,

Jake

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Re: Discrepancies - got all my documents!

Postby jake8078 » 17 Feb 2011, 16:28

kontessa wrote:Searched for 'anagrafe' in the Italian white pages and found this for Turi:
Comune Ufficio Anagrafe e Stato Civile

70015 Noci (BA) Via Sansonetti Gianbattistatel:

* 080 4979505



Upon further examination, this seems to be for the Comune di Noci, rather than Turi.

My guess based on some searching is that the location I have to mail the request to is in fact just called "Comune di Turi". I have 2 address for it (and possibly a fax!), via the white pages search site you guys provided:

See this Link

If you look at result #4, it says "Municipio Centralino - Fax". The address listed below it is the same address as the first result.

Any thoughts?

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Re: Discrepancies - got all my documents!

Postby kontessa » 17 Feb 2011, 22:46

Oh gosh, sorry about that! :oops:
BTW, what was the address that you used when you requested your ancestor's documents (or do you know since an agency obtained them)? I would think that if your comune is really small, that there shouldn't be a problem with them receiving your request, even if you just wrote the name 'Comune of Turi'. Also, check the actual records of your ancestor - any addresses listed or phone numbers?

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Re: Discrepancies - got all my documents!

Postby jake8078 » 18 Feb 2011, 01:00

No worries Kontessa. Yes, unfortunately I don't know the address because I had an agency obtain them. All the records I've been able to find of my ancestors don't list any addresses or phone numbers - only their town of origin (Turi) and confusingly erroneous dates of birth :lol:

One of my father's coworker's is from Italy and he's going to call for us (I purchased an int'l calling card) and find out the exact address to send a request to. Going to try to get the facts straightened out for sure and then work backwards from there to the US documents.

Thanks all :)

Jake


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