Name change

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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kontessa
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Re: Name change

Post by kontessa »

Oh, I'm no expert, but I thought the OP was asking if the consulate would accept all of this evidence that he's gathered to reach the conclusion that Diana and Sebastiana are the same person. I'm sorry if I missed the point, or sounded a bit negative. All of that evidence is great for amendments and court orders, but not for convincing a consulate that the names are really for the same person. just my 2 cents. :)
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kontessa
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Re: Name change

Post by kontessa »

johnnyonthespot wrote: Your best choice by far would be to have your own birth certificate corrected.
This is the best advice. :D

If OP's birth record matched his mother's then the only problem document left would be the marriage, right? Birth to birth is more important. Maybe the marriage record could then be explained away with an affidavit, if an amendment isn't possible. (?)
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Re: Name change

Post by johnnyonthespot »

kontessa wrote:Oh, I'm no expert, but I thought the OP was asking if the consulate would accept all of this evidence that he's gathered to reach the conclusion that Diana and Sebastiana are the same person. I'm sorry if I missed the point, or sounded a bit negative. All of that evidence is great for amendments and court orders, but not for convincing a consulate that the names are really for the same person. just my 2 cents. :)
No, no, you didn't miss the point at all. :D

I was just asking if you would agree that the one document he has in which Sebastiana signed (apparently) "Sebastiana (Dians S.) Palermo" would go a long way towards convincing the consulate that they are one and the same person.
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kontessa
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Re: Name change

Post by kontessa »

Miracles happen every day. :lol: My brother just had a screwed up marriage record accepted in Newark, with only an affidavit explaining the mistakes.
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garypeg
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Re: Name change

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My mother was born in Brooklyn, her first marriage took place there as well, as far as I can tell (99% certain- I do not think she left Brooklyn until after her first husband died).
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garypeg
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Re: Name change

Post by garypeg »

Ok, so I go to New York State and say my mother's real name is Sebastiana and Diana. How do they know I am tellng the truth any more than the consulate? How in the world do I prove that a dead woman used Diane instead of her legal name? All I have is 1) a documenmt which she signed using her birth name and Diana and 2) (did I mention these earlier?) the 1926 naturalization document where her father refers to her as Sebastiana and 3) a 1930 census where it is recorded that he has a wife name Francesca and a daughter named Diana (I have the marriage cert of grandfather Giuseppe and Francesca, his birth cert and hers is on the way). 4) a letter from Diana S. Kirkpatrick with her SS# on it asking for a copy of his SS application, which states her father is Giuseppe Palermo with his SS # included. I know it is still not air tight but I do not see how I can make an airtight case. Even if I corrected my birth cert would have the problem of showing that Sebastian is the same as Diana S who married my father. I do not see how I can fix the problem unless she got a court order changing her name- we have two affidavits to that effect and hers, all unsigned but dated July 1, 1943.
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garypeg
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Re: Name change

Post by garypeg »

Here is what I have so far:


1) a document which she signed using her birth name, and Diana S. (already mentioned that)/

2) a print out of the naturalization document where her father refers to her as Sebastiana (not sure if I mentioned this) age X, conforming with her 1916 birth date.

3) a 1930 census where it is recorded that he has a wife name F a daughter named Diana.


4) a letter from Diana S. with her SS# on it asking for a copy of her father's SS application, which states her father is X with his SS # included.

I know it is still not air tight but I do not see how I can make an airtight case unless she legally changed her name. Since she started using Diana by her teen years, then I would think not. The other thing to do would be to get NYS to change her name on my birth cert and get State X to change it on the marriage license, but this would require changing it from Diana S. xxx to Sebasitana xxxx as she was married to another man before she married my father. I have ordered a copy of her marriage cert to xxxx (father to my brother and sister) - I would imagine she used Diana but we will see once I get the document.

Also I do not see how changing my birth cert would help all that much. I could show her on my birth cert, sure, but the marrige cert would show someone else as mother, eg Diana S. I could still be faking it.

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garypeg
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Re: Name change

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Ugh now I see it.
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Re: Name change

Post by kontessa »

garypeg wrote: Also I do not see how changing my birth cert would help all that much. I could show her on my birth cert, sure, but the marrige cert would show someone else as mother, eg Diana S. I could still be faking it.
You could still be faking what, exactly?

I think that correcting you own birth record could be a big help to you. The line of descent is followed from birth record to birth record from Italian ancestor to you. The information contained within is critical. If you can amend your birth record to keep it in line with all of the others, you should consider doing so. (Especially if it's possible to do without a court order.) Why would you not choose to correct it if it was possible without a court order?

If you cannot amend your documents, or choose not to, then you could always just go to your appointment, present your documents and see what they have to say. It really is up to you.
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garypeg
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Re: Name change

Post by garypeg »

Also, why would NYS change the name on a birth certificate? How would they know my mother's name is not really Diana S? I have the same problem everywhere I turn. In this case I would be faced with the problem of proving 1) Sebastian is Diana S and two 2) Diana S. never legally changed her name from Sebastiana to Diana S, proving a negative being the problem. Why would it be easier to persuade NYS than the Italian consulate?

Again, thanks for your thoughts.
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Re: Name change

Post by kontessa »

My mother amended her own NYS birth record to change her father's place of birth. She also amended the spelling of her own name on my brother's NYS birth record. I think that it is possible to change your own record, or that of your children. However, NYS may be picky about what you are trying to amend, especially with names. Correcting the spelling of a name is different than changing one name for another. (Some changes/amendments require a court order.)

To do any of this, you would fill out a correction form and then supply NYS with evidence to support your request for a change. They would then evaluate the evidence and decide whether or not a change is possible. They decide what is acceptable proof, and whether or not you meet that level of proof.

How would NYS know that your mother's real name is not Diana S.? By you submitting HER birth record. Didn't you say that her birth record shows her name as Sebastiana (or is my memory failing me?)?

Johnny-on-the-spot gave you the best advice. Try to amend your birth record. Town clerks in NYS should have correction forms for people requesting amendments/corrections to records, or you can contact Ms. Ortiz in the correction unit of NYS vital records and ask her directly if you can correct your mother's name on your birth record. She will tell you if it's possible and what documents you need.

I also think that you are confusing providing proof for an amendment to NYS, with providing proof to the consulate that you have a claim for Italian citizenship. It's not about one being easier than the other. Your main problem may be trying to prove that Sebastiana is Diana S. to the consulate because her names are screwed up on your documents. The only thing you need to prove to NYS is that your mother's name is Sebastiana, and this is only if you decide to correct your birth record.

BTW, if your mother never legally changed her name, and there is no evidence to support the claim that she did, then there is nothing for you to prove (so your problem #2 goes away).

And back to all of the documents that you are trying to gather to prove that Sebastiana and Diana S. are the same person - they could be used to support your request to correct her name on your birth record! You could also use them at your appointment as supplementary evidence, should the consular official object to the mistakes with your mom's names on your documents, so they are very helpful. (I still have to add that the fewer discrepancies you have the stronger your case is.) Just don't confuse the levels of proof required for correcting a NYS record with that required by an Italian consulate for citizenship.
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Re: Name change

Post by KarenChristino »

Like all of us, I am struggling with some of these same issues. From what I've read on this forum, my impression is that while NYC, NYS, etc. have procedures for what they will accept to amend vital records, the Consulate does not.

My mom's birth certificate is a mess, but when we received it, NYS on their own initiative provided a list of different documents that they would accept to correct it. That is part of their regular job. It you have the specific documents they require, they will do it.

My impression of the Consulate is that while they may occasionally overlook some discrepancies, it's not their place to make judgments, changes or corrections to your documents. They are either correct in their estimation or not.

I had a lot of frustration getting my driver's license corrected last year. The clerks are only authorized to accept A, B and C as proof of changes. I couldn't even get a supervisor to discuss it with me, despite the fact that it was their error! The only thing they would do was hand me a paper with their instructions. It was like talking to a wall. I had to go back and collect enough supporting documents; then there was no problem. This seems to me to be the way the Consulate operates.

As kontessa says, you can go in with your documents and see what they say, make the corrections later. Or you can do what you can in advance to have a cleaner application. Unfortunately, with the Consulate, we don't have any specific instructions, we can just try to figure it out based on what others share.

My GF's death certificate has Italian-sounding name a/k/a anglicized name. I think this will help me but I'm not sure. Perhaps you can have some of your mom's records amended using the document with both names to reflect both and legitimize both names (just a guess/thought). Obviously it would be better to have the correct name all the way through if possible.
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Re: Name change

Post by garypeg »

Well, there appears to be a consensus developing that I should change my mother's name on the birth cert to what I assume to be her legal name. I can show what her birth certificate says and I can show various documents suggesting that Diana S and Sebastiana are one and the same. So I still have to convince someone of this, just the consensus is to try to convince NYS. If I can't, I can't.

So then when I get to the consulate everything is fine and dandy until I get to the marriage certs and then I have Diana S marrying my father, not Sebastiana. Ok, I show how Sebastiana and Diana S. are the same person using her father's naturalization docs, census records 1930 (which shows the transition), the letter and form sent to SS, and whatever else I can find. Proving that Diana S=Sebastiana has never seemed a straightforward proposition to me, made less so by her death and the death of everyone who knew her besides close family.

I will call NY on Monday and talk to t Ms. Ortiz in the correction unit of NYS vital records. 518-474-20130 (there is an extra digit here) is the phone number I found off another entry, I do not know if it is correct, I think the 0 at the end is wrong). Per another entry:

Her email is: lmo03@health.state.ny.us
Her mailing address is:
Linda Ortiz
NYS DOH Vital Records
Correction/Amendment Unit
PO Box 2602
Albany NY 12220-2602

Therefore since I am in Spain I think I will try emailing her first.

Thanks again to everyone for their excellent efforts.

gary
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garypeg
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Re: Name change

Post by garypeg »

I applied for a name change on my birth certificate, one changing my mother's first name. NYS wrote back and said they needed a court order since it involved a change of identity of my mother, since my birth certificate if changed would not match her name on my parents marriage certificate.

Linda Ortiz was very helpful.

Gary
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Re: Name change

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On this same topic, that of showing Diana = Sebastiana (she used the former but the latter was her legal name), I have a copy of the marriage cert between my mother and her first husband, who later died. She married him as Sebastiana. She married my father as Diana S (last name of first husband). I think this certificate will help show that Diana=Sebastiana. If so, does this marriage certificate need to be apostilled? I ordered a plain copy so I would need to get a letter of exemplification from NYC. Can I send them the marriage cert I sent or do I need to start over?

Thanks


Gary
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