Derivative Citizenship...a problem?

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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Mbmal
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Derivative Citizenship...a problem?

Postby Mbmal » 25 Feb 2011, 13:45

My son is applying for dual citizenship through his ggf who came over at age 17 with his father (1921). ICAP found a certificate of Drivative Citizenship from 1941 that the ggf applied for through his father. They are telling me that they will not know until we receive the document whether or not it was granted retroactively. if it was granted retroactively does that mean that my son cannot gain dual citizenship?

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Re: Derivative Citizenship...a problem?

Postby johnnyonthespot » 25 Feb 2011, 14:07

It seems a bit odd; by 1921, the time frame for naturalizing in the US had become quite long and it seems unlikely to me that the process was completed prior to ggf's 21st birthday.

My guess is that it did not happen, but you will have to await the documentary evidence. Perhaps ggf assumed/hoped that his father naturalized in time and thought that he would be able to attain citizenship "the easy way". My question would be, if this didn't pan out (and I do not think it did), then what did ggf do next? Did he begin the full naturalization process on his own? Did he just drop the matter and live his remaining years as an Italian citizen here as an Alien resident?


Unfortunately, if it did happen, then I am afraid your son may be out of luck.
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Re: Derivative Citizenship...a problem?

Postby Mbmal » 25 Feb 2011, 14:40

would the certificate indicate that it wasnt granted or is it possible that they did not grant it retroactively.
thank you

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Re: Derivative Citizenship...a problem?

Postby mler » 25 Feb 2011, 19:48

They would not grant it retroactively. They would simply give him a certificate in his name dated at the time his father received citizenship. I'm with Carmine on this; I doubt it happened.

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Re: Derivative Citizenship...a problem?

Postby johnnyonthespot » 25 Feb 2011, 20:11

mler wrote:They would not grant it retroactively. They would simply give him a certificate in his name dated at the time his father received citizenship. I'm with Carmine on this; I doubt it happened.


The only alternative explanation I can offer is the possibility that the father had been in this country (I say "this" but I am not enirely certain we are talking about the US...) - had been in this country for some time and became a naturalized citizen. Afterwards, he returned to Italy and came back with his son who was by now 17 years old.
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Re: Derivative Citizenship...a problem?

Postby Mbmal » 25 Feb 2011, 20:27

thanks, my head is actually spinning over this and they want my son to play baseball and want this done pronto... i did find on Ancestry.com that it seems that there was a petition made by the ggf father in july of '22 but it was cancelled. his ggf would have been 19 then. let me ask this, would a petition date of a delcaration or intent date differ from a date of naturalization if granted?

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Re: Derivative Citizenship...a problem?

Postby johnnyonthespot » 25 Feb 2011, 20:58

If I recall correctly, the process by 1921 was thus:

a) after residing legally in the US for a minimum of 2 years, a person filed a "Declaration of Intention"

b) after waiting an additional 3 years, declarant was permitted to file a "Petition for Naturalization", the processing of which took anywhere from a few months to a year or more.

If gggf arrived in the US in 1921 with his then 17 year-old son, I think it unlikely that he (gggf) was a naturalized citizen prior to son's (ggf's) 21st birthday.
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Re: Derivative Citizenship...a problem?

Postby Mbmal » 25 Feb 2011, 21:20

thank you that would make sense that whatever they found could not have been granted before 1925 at the earlies and yes, after his ggf's 21st birthday...let's hope so..

you have been very helpful and i appreciate all of your responses.

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Re: Derivative Citizenship...a problem?

Postby mler » 25 Feb 2011, 22:17

Hope it works out for you, and how exciting for you son. Interestingly enough, an Italian baseball player, Alex Liddi, is now in the Seattle Mariner system. They think he will play in AAA this year. I guess baseball is enjoying a bit of popularity in Italy.

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Re: Derivative Citizenship...a problem?

Postby jennabet » 25 Feb 2011, 23:29

There are many Italian-Americans playing basketball on the Italian teams as well.
It's a big sport in Italy. It's just called "Basket". They leave off the "ball".

Italy does bring in non-Italian athletes from the European Union. They recruit a lot of Greeks, for example, who are good at basketball. With the Americans, they could also recruit non-Italian players, but again proving my point, Italy prefers to have as many Italian-Americans on it's teams as possible. A great opportunity for your son.

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Re: Derivative Citizenship...a problem?

Postby Mbmal » 25 Feb 2011, 23:46

Thank you for your kind words and good wishes. I hope it works out for him as well. Maybe this way I can get to see Italy as well!!

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Re: Derivative Citizenship...a problem?

Postby Mbmal » 27 Feb 2011, 19:37

I am back again. Doing some more research while waiting for the documentation. I found a declaration of intent on ancestry.com with file numbers and then I found a ny supreme court naturalization petition dated July of 1922 that was cancelled. I can't fine anything else and I wonder if it was cancelled because the intent was files under Domenico Marvagna and the petition was Dominico Marvagna. Any way if it was cancelled for spelling I can't find another with the correction. I also found ship records of the ggf and his fathers passage over. His father indicates that he visited twice before but lists his last permanent address as lecare and did not indicate that he stayed any length if time on either prior trip. How well did they check for permanent residency back then in order to gain naturalization. My son is beginning to freak out thinking that dual citizenship may not be pissible

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Re: Derivative Citizenship...a problem?

Postby Mbmal » 27 Feb 2011, 19:38

Is it possible to see the intent document and the cancelled petition in ny county clerks office?

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Re: Derivative Citizenship...a problem?

Postby johnnyonthespot » 27 Feb 2011, 20:04

Read very carefully, especially the note on the right side of Image#2. This is the US Passport request of Felice, Domenico's wife and children.

In the passport request, she says that Domenico was naturalized in July, 1922.

Click each image to enlarge, then click again for maximum magnification.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
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Re: Derivative Citizenship...a problem?

Postby johnnyonthespot » 27 Feb 2011, 20:18

Felice and children passenger manifest:

Image
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