Minors -- The Consulate Is ALWAYS Right

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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Minors -- The Consulate Is ALWAYS Right

Postby jennabet » 08 Mar 2011, 05:23

Again, the GF born April 1894 came to America with the GGF. The GGF naturalized August 6, 1913.

Consulate stated SPECIFICALLY that at 19, the GF was NOT a minor. Someone in this forum (Mler) disputed Consulate and said Consulates make mistakes.

Proof this is not a mistake. Application of Article 5 of Law 123/1983 and of ruling no. 30/1983 toward those who were minors when Law 123/1983 (April 27-1983) became effective.

3. Minors on the effective entry date of Law 123/1983 who found themselves in possession of one or more foreign citizenships acquired by derivation from their parents have been held -- until May 17, 1986 -- to the option foreseen in the second paragraph of article 5 of the same law, to be used during the 19th year of age. The unused option had entailed the loss of citizenship upon the ending of the 19th year of age.

A person born April 1894 may be age 19 in August 1913 but he is NOT in his 19th year of life. He is in his 20th year of life! Therefore again, without question, the Consulate is correct!! At age 19, he is NOT a minor.

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Re: Minors -- The Consulate Is ALWAYS Right

Postby jennabet » 08 Mar 2011, 05:27

Italian-American friends, please check carefully with your consulate regarding loss of citizenship for minors. I was wondering myself why on all of his documents, he appears as one year older. Well, that's because they didn't ask, "How old are you"? They asked, "When were you born", and then calculated the age accordingly. As it should be!

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Re: Minors -- The Consulate Is ALWAYS Right

Postby mler » 08 Mar 2011, 12:39

The inconsistencies among the various consulates demonstrate that consulates do make errors. If the consulate is "always" right, there would be a uniform interpretation of the 1912 and other laws. As it stands, however, the best we can say is that some consulates are more right than others. :? But that's another issue.

As I read it, the Article you quote seems to ensure that minors retained citizenship as long as one parent was also a citizen. Unlaw, who posts frequently on another site is very knowledgable about Italian citizenship law, and you may want to pose the question to him/her. He may well be able to find a law that specifically addresses your situation. Note his explanation below:

http://italiancitizenship.freeforums.or ... 23-50.html\

Please note though that even your interpretation of the law does not support your position since as you state, it applies "toward those who were minors when Law 123/1983 (April 27-1983) became effective." In 1983, the age of majority in both the US and Italy was 18.

Regarding the derivative citizenship of minors in the US, the following historical chart may be helpful:

http://imminfo.com/Library/citizenship/ ... art_3.html

. . .and from Wikipedia (admittedly not a definitive source but interesting):

"If the Italian parent naturalized as a citizen of another country on or after July 1, 1912, and prior to August 15, 1992, and if the child did not acquire the citizenship of that country automatically at birth, then the child must have reached legal adulthood (age 21 prior to March 10, 1975; age 18 thereafter) prior to the parent's naturalization."

None of this, however, affects your fiance's situation since his gf's early marriage clearly argues against minority status.

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Re: Minors -- The Consulate Is ALWAYS Right

Postby jennabet » 08 Mar 2011, 20:22

Early marriage is not the determining factor. Neither is age of majority in either country -- be it 18, 21 or whatever number you want to put out there. The fact is that had a parent become naturalized, Italian nationality would have been lost for his children through the completion of the 19th year of life. The GF in this case was age 19 but he was in his 20th year of life, therefore he did not lose his Italian nationality.

Again, Italian-Americans, do not be dissuaded from pursuing your case until you speak to an authority at an Italian consulate.

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Re: Minors -- The Consulate Is ALWAYS Right

Postby mler » 08 Mar 2011, 20:42

I'm sorry, but I find nothing in writing or in the law that supports what you contend to be "fact", or any reported situation in which such a determination has been made

I'm sorry if the information I have provided does not support your position, and I would be happy to be proven wrong since it would open up citizenship to many more people, including cgiulia. Unfortunately, the law you cite does not quite do it.

Ultimately, of course, the consulate makes the decision, and by all means one should pursue all options until the consulate definitively rejects a claim.

BTW, here is another person who would benefit if your interpretation is correct:

http://italiancitizenship.freeforums.or ... t1608.html

Note that the concept of "emancipation" is also discussed in this thread as is the derivative citizenship of a 19 year old (in the 20th year).

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Re: Minors -- The Consulate Is ALWAYS Right

Postby jennabet » 08 Mar 2011, 22:48

Italy is the ONLY authority that determines who it's citizens are no matter where they are around the world. The USA via it's naturalization process does NOT have this authority. Therefore Italian-Americans should not be confused about derivative citizenship.

They can get a clear answer, from a consular authority, as to whether or not their ancestor lost his Italian citizenship. Only that answer should be considered valid, mainly because the consulate won't even take your documents if you don't have a valid case.

The Italian consulate will be more than willing to work with you if you're Italian. Remember, you are not asking to become naturalized. You were born Italian. The purpose of dual citizenship is to return Italy to it's Italian roots.

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Re: Minors -- The Consulate Is ALWAYS Right

Postby mler » 09 Mar 2011, 00:03

Totally agree--the US does not determine Italian citizenship; Italy does. However, Italy considers naturalization in any another country before 1992 to be renunciation; and naturalization is determined by the country in which that naturalization takes place.

If Italy decides to ignore naturalization law in terms of derivative citizenship, it has every right to do so. In fact, it does ignore one aspect of Australian naturalization law, which permits a 16 year old to naturalize independently of his parents. The Australian consulates have determined that such naturalization did not constitute renunciation unless the parents naturalized as well. So it has indeed happened.

However, to date, I've not seen evidence that it has chosen to ignore the derivative naturalization laws of a country. If they do so, it would open up citizenship to cgiulia and mbmal, recent posters whose ancestors were considered by the US to have naturalized as minors during their 20th year.

So ultimately, the consulates' decisions in these cases may help to determine the eligibility of future applicants in similar situations.


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