NYC Appt Yesterday-Told my case is "complicated"

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taralynn125
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NYC Appt Yesterday-Told my case is "complicated"

Postby taralynn125 » 07 Jun 2011, 19:41

Hi Everyone! I had my first appt at the Italian Consulate yesterday and I now have 3 months to correct documents and get missing docs. There are quite a few things that I'm told I need that I didn't expect at all so maybe there are people here who have experience with some of these things.

I don't know the name of the woman who interviewed me, but she was very friendly and even joked with me a little. I sat with her for an hour and a half! She told me that my case is very complicated because most of my documents are not from New York. I'm going through GGF-GF-F-Me. I have many documents from Scotland and England, my grandfather anglicized his name, plus he lived in Italy for a long time even though he was born in Scotland and naturalized a US citizen, so I now need to show proof that he was a legal resident.

So here is what I showed her and what she said I still need (bear with me; there's a lot):

-An emailed copy of my GGF's birth certificate from Italy (I told her my the Certified Copy was on it's way from Italy but hasn't arrived yet): She typed up the info from the emailed copy.

-I did not have my GGM's birth certificate but told her that it's also on its way along with my GGF certificate.

-GGP's marriage certificate from Scotland (translated and Apostilled): She said it needs to be validated by the Italian consulate in Scotland. I'm not sure what this means but she said to call them and they will know. Does anyone here know about this?

-GGF's Naturalization papers from London: She said it needs an Apostille and to be validated from the Italian consulate in London.

-GGM's death certificate from New York (Apostilled and translated): Accepted

-GGF's Death certificate from London (Apostilled and translated): Again, must be validated.

-GF's birth certificate from Scotland (Apostilled and translated): Also needs to be validated. She mentioned that the birth certificate could not be accepted because my GF had handwritten his anglicized first name on it. He's dead now and had done this long ago. She said they can't accept documents with handwriting on them. However, she later forgot about this and did not put it on her "list of remarks" which is her official declaration of what I still need. Should I get a new one anyway?

-GM's birth certificate from London (translated and Apostilled): It is not on her list of remarks that it needs to be validated but she said that all documents from England and Scotland should be validated. So I'm confused as to whether this one needs to be. I guess I should do it just in case. There is no father listed on my GM's birth certificate because he died before she was born and her parents were not married. The consular officer noticed this but said it wasn't a problem because she's not in the direct line.

-GP's marriage certificate from London (translated and Apostilled): must be validated

-GF's Original Naturalization certificate from Massachusetts (from when he moved from London to the US): This I'm worried about. On my GF's birth and marriage certificates, his first name is Giovanni, yet when he moved to the US, he always went by John or John Michael. The Naturalization Certificate says John, so she said I must get the Petition for Naturalization to verify his first name because the Petition should show his name as Giovanni. How do I get this and what if it also shows his name as John? He didn't legally change his name, but used John exclusively in the US.

-GP's Divorce Judgment from New York (Apostilled and translated): She said I need a Certificate of No Appeals and to have that translated and Apostilled. She also said that the translations for both the Judgment and Certificate of No Appeals must be Apostilled.

-GF's Death Certificate from NY (Apostilled and translated): Accepted, even though his name is listed as John M.

-F's Birth Certificate from Massachusetts (translated and Apostilled): First, she said this must be validated by the Italian consulate in Boston, which is unbelievable to me. Also, I need to have this amended because my GF's first name says John instead of Giovanni. I just called the town hall of Springfield, MA and they said that it can be done (without a court order) but that after it is amended they can no longer give me an original document. It will be a certified copy of a typed up (but long form) version. The town hall clerk said the consulate won't accept anything but the original, but I think she is wrong. Anyone know about this?

-I had affadavits from me and my father saying that John and Giovanni are the same person (Apostilled and translated), but she did not accept them. I also showed her my GF's Italian driver's license saying "John" and Italian bank statements using both John and Giovanni that were sent to his residence in Italy. He lived in Italy for many years. This apparently was a mistake because she did not accept them as proof and now she says that I need to produce a Certificato Storico di Residenza by the Comune di Soverato (where he lived) to show that he was living there legally. She actually asked me if he lived there legally and I said "I assume so, since he had a house and bank accounts. I doubt he could get those if he didn't have permission to be living in Italy." She said well we need proof of his residency for his file.

-M's birth certificate from NY (Apostilled and translated): Accepted

-Parents marriage certificate from CT (translated and Apostilled): Accepted; even though my grandfather is listed on it as John

-My birth certificate from NY (translated and Apostilled): Accepted

-Need Forms 3 and 4 stating that my GF and GGF never renounced Italian citizenship. I was surprised that I need this considering that I have their naturalization papers.

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Re: NYC Appt Yesterday-Told my case is "complicated"

Postby johnnyonthespot » 08 Jun 2011, 10:23

So many questions! Too many for me to deal with just now, but I wanted to throw one thing into the ring for consideration.

Since your GF lived in Italy for a time - and as you say, almost certainly legally - I would give careful consideration to the possibilty that his birth was registered in either his ancestral comune (the place of his father's birth) or in the comune in which he resided. If either of these comuni will provide a copy of his Italian birth registration and/or a certificato di cittadinanza, then you would be able to eliminate an entire generation from your application along with all the documents from England and Scotland.

Certainly worth chasing down! I suggest you concentrate a lot of effort on this facet of your case.
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Re: NYC Appt Yesterday-Told my case is "complicated"

Postby johnnyonthespot » 08 Jun 2011, 14:42

taralynn125 wrote:-GGP's marriage certificate from Scotland (translated and Apostilled): She said it needs to be validated by the Italian consulate in Scotland. I'm not sure what this means but she said to call them and they will know. Does anyone here know about this?

-F's Birth Certificate from Massachusetts (translated and Apostilled): First, she said this must be validated by the Italian consulate in Boston, which is unbelievable to me.


Let's look at the second item first.

Suppose you had a birth certificate issued by the tiny little town of Richford on the northern Vermont border. When you have the Vermont Secretary of State apostille this birth certificate, they are saying that they recognize it as an official document issued by a Vermont community and that the person who signed the certificate is known to the state and has the constitutional and legal authority to do so.

Now, the problem with this seems to be as follows: Have you ever seen an apostille? In many states (New York, for example), they are extremely simple documents which could easily be forged by any child with a 1960's era printing set, let alone a modern computer and printer. So, it appears that many consulates will send apostilled documents to the "home" consulate (Boston, in this case) and ask, "Hey, is this real?"

The Boston consulate - who can say for sure? - either passes judgement based on its own experience or perhaps contacts the Vermont Secretary of State Apostille department and asks, "We have apostille number xxxxx dated yyyyy and attached to such-and-such document; is this in agreement with your records?" Boston (hopefully!) affixes its own stamp and signature and sends it back to the requesting consulate.

Now, onto the first item:

Basically, all we have done is to add another layer. What does the NYC consulate know of apostilles issued by every Hague Convention member country, big or small? So, what they want you to do is to send your original documents with apostille to the consulate/embassy responsible for the area of origination and have that consulate "legalize" them, just as the Boston consulate legalized (or authenicated) the Vermont document.
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Re: NYC Appt Yesterday-Told my case is "complicated"

Postby taralynn125 » 09 Jun 2011, 07:07

Thanks Carmine!

I guess I just assumed that the Apostille would be validation in and of itself. But you're right, the Apostilles are pretty simple. I'll have to look into my grandfather's residency in Italy. So are you saying that he may have been a citizen? I did wonder about that (in fact, when I started collecting papers I was planning on going through my GF, but then I found his birth certificate and, lo and behold, it said he was born in Scotland!), but he would have attained his citizenship after my father was born. Does that matter?

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Re: NYC Appt Yesterday-Told my case is "complicated"

Postby johnnyonthespot » 09 Jun 2011, 14:10

You haven't given details regarding the time frame GF spent in Italy; not to say that it would make my response any more certain...

Using "today but pre-EU" as an example, in order to remain in Italy for any length of time, one must be an Italian citizen or must obtain one of various types of permesso di soggiorno per motivi... ("permission to stay for reason of..."). Unless one is independently well-to-do, these permessi can be difficult to obtain.

Your GF's easiest route to remaining in Italy legally would have been to simply show that he was born of an Italian father and thus was himself an Italian citizen. Possibility 1 is that his father registered his birth in the ancestral comune at the time it occurred; possibility 2 is that the birth was registered when GF arrived in Italy and presented proof of his birthright.

Either way, the comune would have recognized him as having been an Italain citizen since birth; if you can get documentation of this, then you can drop the extra generation from your jure sanguinis application.

When did GF first go to Italy and how long did he remain there?

You might try writing to the ancestral comune and also Soverato (if different) requesting GF's birth certificate (Estratto per Riassunto per Atto di Nascita) being sure to give both his actual date of birth and the date he arrived in Italy for the first time. This is because if his birth was recorded, it will be either in the registry for the year of birth (if his father reported the birth in a timely manner) or in the registry for the year in which it was actually recorded (the year GF arrived in Italy, for example).
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Re: NYC Appt Yesterday-Told my case is "complicated"

Postby jennabet » 09 Jun 2011, 23:16

Since the United Kingdom/Scotland doesn't recognize birth on the soil, the grand-father born in Scotland to an Italian citizen would have been required to choose nationality at age 18, either Italian or Scotts but he could not have both -- and it may be at this time that he anglicized his own birth certificate. Since his father (GGF) died in Scotland, it doesn't seem likely that the son (GF) would have returned to Italy before he turned 18. It seems more likely that he may have spent time in Italy on some type of a business visa but that he was a British citizen who eventually naturalized American and did so before his American son was born. Of course, the residency records from the comune would have to prove all of this but it's undoubtedly the reason why the consulate asked for the confirmation.

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Re: NYC Appt Yesterday-Told my case is "complicated"

Postby taralynn125 » 10 Jun 2011, 05:35

Thanks Carmine! I wish I had known all this before I collected all the documents for my GGPs and had them all translated and Apostilled! Honestly, I have no idea when my GF first arrived in Italy. I guess I should write to both Soverato and Nocera Inferiore (where my GGF was born) and see if either have a birth certificate for him. Maybe he even registered with his birth with the name John, which would save me from having to amend my father's birth certificate.


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