A "Different" Case Application

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
jennabet
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A "Different" Case Application

Postby jennabet » 11 Jun 2011, 00:56

This case involves an emancipated minor, age 20. He was born in Italy and is listed on his father's naturalization papers from 1913 but he did not lose his Italian citizenship because like I said he was emancipated, having been married the year before in 1912.

I probably didn't have to do the additional searches for Federal, State and Local "no record of naturalization" for him, but I did them anyway and also obtained a Census on which he lists himself as "N". Of course, no records were found because he didn't initiate the naturalization himself as he was a minor.

My question is this. Since he WAS naturalized (or considered naturalized by the USA) but he did not lose his Italian citizenship, should I include the extra "No Records Found" and the Census in the documents submitted? It will be a mail in application and I don't want to confuse things because really the Naturalization Record by itself tells the entire story but I'm just trying to anticipate in advance what the consulate will ask for.

Experts here, please advise. Grazie.

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Re: A "Different" Case Application

Postby mler » 11 Jun 2011, 03:21

I do understand that yours is a unique situation--a naturalization accepted in the US, but not in Italy for the purpose of citizenship loss. Your case is based on emanicipation at the time of his father's naturalization. You are not denying citizenship, only that this naturalization did not affect his Italian citizenship. I don't think the additional documents do anything to further your case, and I would tend to hold them back unless they are specifically requested by the consulate.

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Re: A "Different" Case Application

Postby johnnyonthespot » 11 Jun 2011, 04:00

Unless I am mis-reading, this is a case where you have to separately prove the naturalization status of both father and son.

1) you have to prove that son was no longer a minor or was emancipated at the time of his father's naturalization, thereby leaving son's Italian citizenship intact.

2) now you have to prove that son did not naturalize on his own as an adult prior to the birth of his child (I presume there is another generation involved?).

In my opinion, you need the full set of "No Records Found" letters for the son. Alternatively, you need to show that the son did naturalize on his own and that he did so after his child was born.

Point of confusion: "children" were listed on the Delaration of Intent regardless of their age and regardless of whether they would automatically naturalize with their father. Example: my maternal grandfather filed his declaration in 1938. In the appropriate section, it states, "I have __nine__ children, and the name, date and place of birth, and place of residence of each of said children are as follows:" It then goes on to list two daughters born in Italy in 1906 and 1908 as well as seven additional children born in New York between 1914 and 1926. By this time in 1938, the four eldest children were already married and living apart from my grandparents.

Notice that the form does not specify "minor children" but simply "children". Nor does it specify "foreign born children". They are all listed there, even the ones who are in their 30's, married, and no longer living at home.

As you can see, the fact that the two eldest daughters obviously did not naturalize with their father says nothing as to the possibility that they may have naturalized either afterwards (or even before) on their own or through marriage. And the result would be the same if the two eldest children were males instead of females.

So, I don't see how you get around the fact that you have to separately prove the naturalization status of both father and son.
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Re: A "Different" Case Application

Postby mler » 11 Jun 2011, 04:25

That's an excellent point, Carmine. Then, it seems the "no record" letters will be needed.

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Re: A "Different" Case Application

Postby jennabet » 11 Jun 2011, 07:59

.......In my opinion, you need the full set of "No Records Found" letters for the son. Alternatively, you need to show that the son did naturalize on his own and that he did so after his child was born......

Carmine, not sure what you mean by this. I do have a full set of "no records" for the son between the date his name appears on his father's naturalization (1913) and the date he, the son, died in 1926. The only "naturalization" that exists for the son was in 1913 when his father naturalized. I cannot prove that he naturalized on his own before he died.

By the way, as with your own case, all nine children appear on the father's naturalization certificate -- even the one daughter who was age 21 but in this case (1913), the document says Minor children. Four were born in Italy, six were born in USA.

So do you still think I should send full set of "no record" letters? I do also have a Census from 1920. The son states he was "N" but again, this is after his father's naturalization in 1913. The son also lists the date of "N" as 1902, which is the year he arrived in America and not the year his father naturalized. By the next Census in 1930, the son was deceased.

Also my consulate states that if you come up empty after a full search, you must also send the Census. But I didn't come up empty. I have the son listed on his father's naturalization certificate as an emancipated minor.

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Re: A "Different" Case Application

Postby johnnyonthespot » 11 Jun 2011, 10:52

In your first post, you asked:

My question is this. Since he WAS naturalized (or considered naturalized by the USA) but he did not lose his Italian citizenship, should I include the extra "No Records Found" and the Census in the documents submitted?


In my opinion, the consulate is not going to see it this way at all. They are either going to see a person who naturalized along with his father, or a person who could possibly have naturalized on his own sometime between the ages of 21 and 26 when he died.

You are offering proof that he did not naturalize with his father on the basis that he was an emancipated minor at the time, but you seem to be suggesting that you do not need to provide proof that he did not naturalize on his own. I believe this is incorrect.

My vote: send the No Records Found letters for the son but do not send the census - it will confuse the issue and may cause the consulate to demand that you make further searches for naturalization records. If they later demand the census, you will have to provide it and do your best to convince them it is in error.

You have the option of sending nothing, but I guarantee you the consulate will want to address the 21-26 years and, at that point, they will say "we need no record found letters and the 1920 census." By providing the letters up front, you may get lucky and cut off any concern about the census.

As always, your mileage may vary, :)
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Re: A "Different" Case Application

Postby jennabet » 11 Jun 2011, 11:12

Va bene. Grazie tanto. This is exactly as I was seeing it but the Census was hanging me up. OK, I will do it exactly like you recommended.

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Re: A "Different" Case Application

Postby jennabet » 30 Jul 2011, 04:35

Ciao Carmine. Heard from consulate today. Application was reviewed and everything is in order and case was put in process queue. We mailed it in just the way you advised. Thank you so much for being here.


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