Going to Italy to apply for passport - possible?

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vanessam
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Going to Italy to apply for passport - possible?

Postby vanessam » 16 Jun 2011, 17:26

Hello,

I'd really appreciate some advice.

I have all my paper work in order (certificates, etc) checked and OK'ed by the Italian Consulate in Australia, but since I am currently overseas, I would like to look into the possibility of aplpying directly in Italy. I have heard conflicting advice - some say it is possible, some say no. I asked the consulate person I had been dealing with last year if it is possible to just go to Italy and apply there and he said yes. Unfortunately this doesn't comfort me as I have had conflicting advice from consulate officers in the past.

So, in your experience or from what you know (no guessing please!) is it a possible route to take? I'm travelling to Italy anyway, so I just thought it wouldn't hurt to check it out..

Thank you in advance,

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Re: Going to Italy to apply for passport - possible?

Postby kontessa » 16 Jun 2011, 21:34

I do not believe that you would be allowed to apply for a passport in Italy unless you are a resident in Italy. You can apply for your citizenship in Italy (special steps must be followed), but passports? I don't think so.

You mentioned that you have all of your certificates prepared...do you mean that you would like to apply for citizenship in Italy? If so, I would recommend that you search under the citizenship subsection of the forum at expatsinitaly.com. Search for 'Applying in Italy' or for a poster named Roark - he/she posted a complete list of what you are required to do upon arrival. There is plenty of helpful information there. Good luck.

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Re: Going to Italy to apply for passport - possible?

Postby vanessam » 17 Jun 2011, 14:59

Thanks for your reply. I guess what I mean is that I'm applying for citizenship which will enable me to apply for a passport.

I did have a look at all the posts written by Rorak and the word document that he/she prepared in regards to this was unavailable (perhaps a broken link?).

Obviously the first step to getting a passport is ciitizenship, so I'll be tackling that when I visit Italy....I'm new here, but I'll keep reading the posts and hopefully I'll be able to report back on positive experience soon!

Thanks,

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Re: Going to Italy to apply for passport - possible?

Postby kontessa » 17 Jun 2011, 17:16

There is a thread titled 'It can be done - applying in Italy', but it's 21 pages long. That thread, as well as several others summarizes the general steps that most people have followed. Just remember that they are only general guidelines, as each person may have a slightly different experience. It takes time to read through the information, but it is quite helpful.

Also, just a suggestion :) , but try to be prepared before you head to Italy - research what is supposed to occur, have your documents fine-tuned, and have a backup plan in case things become complicated.

One important element is obtaining a stamp in your passport upon arrival. If you don't have a stamp, you will be required to obtain a declaration of presence from the Questura. You will then have to file for residency in order to summit your documents. Best to have a copy of Circolare 32 in case your comune doesn't know the rules. Try not to plan to complete everything while you are in Italy on a month-long vacation as it may take a little longer depending on the comune you choose, and how well-prepared you are.

(This is general information, your case may be slightly different depending on which ancestor/parent you may be going through.) Good luck!

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Re: Going to Italy to apply for passport - possible?

Postby jennabet » 17 Jun 2011, 19:22

Hi there. Before you go to Italy to apply for citizenship, you should have this ok'd by your consulate so they can give you a Visa to stay longer than 90 days. The problem with applying in Italy is that if it takes the Comune longer than three months to process your application, the Comune will not be able to give you permission to stay longer if you entered without a Visa and you will have to return home and start all over again. Another problem is that many if not all (by now) Comunes won't even take your documents unless you have entered with a Visa (in other words, permission from your consulate). If you are able to get it all done in Italy and you are still a legal resident, you can also apply for your passport at your local Questura (Municipal Police Department). But I think it's better to be safe than sorry. If you read information on another forum, as someone suggested you do, no doubt you came across the problems being experienced by someone who entered Italy on a cruise ship and without a Visa in order to have his citizenship processed and he has been traveling all over Italy looking for a Comune to take his documents and give him permission to stay. If you're in the country legally (with a Visa) from the time you enter, you can avoid all of these problems.

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Re: Going to Italy to apply for passport - possible?

Postby kontessa » 17 Jun 2011, 21:50

Visas are NOT required if an individual intending to apply for citizenship arrives in Italy and either has their passport stamped upon entry, or they obtain a declaration of presence from the Questura. (See Circolare 28 and 32) They then apply for residence. Once they have residency, they can submit their documents. Once they have submitted their documents, they are given a receipt from the comune. The receipt is then used to apply for a permit to stay (Permesso di Soggiorno - typo 'in attesa di cittadinaza'), which allows the individual to remain in Italy legally beyond the 90 days. The comune does not approve someone's stay in Italy, the Questura does. Peoples experiences will vary.

The individual that posted on expatsinitaly.com that arrived via cruise ship without a visa was attempting to have the local Questura issue a declaration of presence. He did get this btw. He also mentioned that he was having problems because the comune he attempted to use wasn't familiar with filing his documents, so he was asking for advice/ideas for a comune that WAS familiar with the process. No, he didn't have a visa, because a stamp in his passport or the declaration of presence from the Questura was sufficient. For an accurate description of what has taken place, here is a link to the thread:
http://expatsinitaly.com/phpbbforum/vie ... =7&t=14860

Upon further reading of other applicants experiences on expatsinitaly, one might find very similar experiences with not having a visa while still being successful - even beyond 90 days. I had a PdiS in attesa di cittadinanza that allowed me to remain in Italy legally for the time that my citizenship was being processed. It took about 9 or 10 months - well beyond the 90-day limit.

I believe that there ARE cases where one must inform their consulate that they intend to move to Italy to have their citizenship re-instated or recognized, but this may be for people that naturalized themselves and want it back, or their children(?). I don't know anything about these cases. Perhaps these people need visas - I don't know. Best to search on expatsinitaly or pose a question there for specific information.

Actually, searching on expatsinitaly.com in the citizenship subforum for 'applying in Italy' might give you the most accurate picture - based on people's actual experiences. Best of luck to you!

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Re: Going to Italy to apply for passport - possible?

Postby jennabet » 18 Jun 2011, 02:26

My consulate instructs that a Visa is necessary to apply in Italy (and this has nothing to do with applying to regain lost citizenship) and that any translations done outside of Italy must also be certified by that same consulate for use in Italy. The requestor can take whatever advice she feels is best but it's never wise to go anywhere for an extended stay without first getting permission. Every foreigner needs permission before they can get anything done at a Questura. A foreign candidate for citizenship is still a foreigner. A Comune is not allowed to take a foreigner's documents and give permission to go to the Questura. The only way this can happen is if you present a Visa to the Comune, which in effect gives the OK from the Consulate for the Comune to proceed. A stamped passport by itself will not suffice. Idealy, everybody who enters Italy should have their passport stamped.

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Re: Going to Italy to apply for passport - possible?

Postby kontessa » 18 Jun 2011, 08:28

jennabet wrote:A Comune is not allowed to take a foreigner's documents and give permission to go to the Questura.


This quote is not really an accurate interpretation of what I posted. The process can be confusing to those that haven't gone through it themselves, and this is why reading about other applicants' experiences is such a good idea. :)

To clarify, the comune is not granting permission for an individual to go to the Questura. The receipt that one receives from the comune is used to apply for a permit to stay. A permit to stay is processed by the local Questura. The receipt is included in the application for the permit to stay.

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Re: Going to Italy to apply for passport - possible?

Postby johnnyonthespot » 18 Jun 2011, 13:51

So, the receipt is issued by the comune to indicate that a citizenship application has been presented.

The questura views this receipt and issues a PdiS, or permit to stay, until such time as citizenship has been recognized (in which case a PdiS is no longer required) or recognition has been denied (in which case the applicant must leave Italy, presuming that he/she is beyond the 90 day tourist visa waiver.

Correct?
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Re: Going to Italy to apply for passport - possible?

Postby kontessa » 18 Jun 2011, 15:42

johnnyonthespot wrote:So, the receipt is issued by the comune to indicate that a citizenship application has been presented.

The questura views this receipt and issues a PdiS, or permit to stay, until such time as citizenship has been recognized (in which case a PdiS is no longer required) or recognition has been denied (in which case the applicant must leave Italy, presuming that he/she is beyond the 90 day tourist visa waiver.

Correct?


Ciao, Carmine. Yes, generally speaking, this is what should occur. Not everyone has the exact same experience, though. Just like the differences between consulates, the comunes' requirements may vary as well. (My receipt was a photocopy of the citizenship application with a marca da bollo attached.)

I think that the PdiS for citizenship is normally valid for one-year, but I could be mistaken about that. Most people usually have their citizenship recognized before the PdiS expires. Some are lucky enough to be recognized before the actual PdiS is issued. (I believe that mine was valid for two years, but I'd have to double-check my records.)

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Re: Going to Italy to apply for passport - possible?

Postby jennabet » 18 Jun 2011, 22:46

Kontessa said.....Just like the differences between consulates, the comunes' requirements may vary as well.....

NO differences exist between consulates regarding jurisdiction. If an applicant for Italian citizenship cannot prove that he legally resides in the consular district by showing his driver's license, electric bill, etc., the applicant will not be served by that consulate. Experts here should feel free to share any knowledge they have of a consulate making an exception in this regard. By the way, when inside an Italian consulate, you are, in effect, in Italy.

Likewise, when in Italy, if an applicant for Italian citizenship cannot prove he legally resides within the Comune by showing his Carta d'Identita or other document(s) proving residence, the applicant will not be served by that Comune or any other Comune. A stamp in an American passport does not prove residency. It proves the applicant is a tourist who must return to the consular district where he legally resides in order to have his application for citizenship accepted. However, if that consulate gave the applicant permission (in the form of a VISA) to apply in Italy, the Comune is required to process residency for the applicant and accept his documents for citizenship.

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Re: Going to Italy to apply for passport - possible?

Postby kontessa » 19 Jun 2011, 01:03

jennabet wrote: A stamp in an American passport does not prove residency.


With all due respect, no one said that a stamp proves residency.

I believe that a stamp in a passport would indicate when one arrives in country.

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Re: Going to Italy to apply for passport - possible?

Postby kontessa » 19 Jun 2011, 01:19

jennabet wrote:However, if that consulate gave the applicant permission (in the form of a VISA) to apply in Italy, the Comune is required to process residency for the applicant and accept his documents for citizenship.


With all due respect, if this statement were true, how is it possible that so many individuals have already successfully applied in Italy without a visa and without permission from a consulate? How is it possible that my friend is applying for citizenship right now in Palermo, without a visa and without permission from a consulate?

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Re: Going to Italy to apply for passport - possible?

Postby vanessam » 22 Jun 2011, 17:58

Thanks for your advice - I am an Australian passport holder so I don't need a visa as such, and as I will be arriving via an airport from London (as opposed to a port) my passport will be stamped. I should also have pointed out in my inital post that I am applying through my mother (she was born in Italy) and hoping to apply for citizenship in Messina. If anyone has experienced dealing with any of the communes there, please let me know.

Thanks again!

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Re: Going to Italy to apply for passport - possible?

Postby johnnyonthespot » 22 Jun 2011, 18:22

vanessam wrote:Thanks for your advice - I am an Australian passport holder so I don't need a visa as such, and as I will be arriving via an airport from London (as opposed to a port) my passport will be stamped. I should also have pointed out in my inital post that I am applying through my mother (she was born in Italy) and hoping to apply for citizenship in Messina. If anyone has experienced dealing with any of the communes there, please let me know.

Thanks again!


Passports are not always stamped as a matter of routine for persons coming from visa waiver countries. Make absolutely certain that the official stamps yours as this has been a sticking point.
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