Citizenship through a GGF-GM-M

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
trinasignoriello
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Citizenship through a GGF-GM-M

Postby trinasignoriello » 19 Jun 2011, 16:04

hello. I hope someone can clarify this, as it is a little unclear.
my ggf came in 1906, my ggm in 1904. They never renounced their italian citizenship. My gm was born in 1910, and she never renounced her IC. My mother was born in 1942 and neither did she. I was born in 1969 and I am trying to obtain my IC.

Now for the question.... category 5 below states that the Italian mother, meaning my GGM since she was the one born in Italy, can't transfer her IC because of the birthdate of my GM. However, is it possible to to transfer it from my GGF to my GM, then to my M and then to me?? If I am understanding this correctly, I can. But I am not sure and don't want to get my hopes up, nor do I want to go through all of the work to obtain the numerous documents if there isn't any hope.

Thanks! So many of you are experts on here.

Trina

Category 5) your paternal or maternal grandparents were born in the United States from Italian parents and they never renounced their right to Italian citizenship. (Please note: the Italian mother can transfer her Italian citizenship only to children born after 01/01/1948). 

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Re: Citizenship through a GGF-GM-M

Postby mler » 19 Jun 2011, 17:45

I explained this in the other thread, but it bears repeating. You're correct that your ggf was able to pass citizenship to your gm. The problem lies with the continuation of that line. Your gm, a woman, could not pass that citizenship to her child (your mother) in 1942, thus ending the line. I'm so sorry that this doesn't work for you.

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Re: Citizenship through a GGF-GM-M

Postby corrado » 20 Jun 2011, 04:34

If you become a resident of Italy you can fast track your naturalization. I forget how long that takes but search on these pages for people who have done that. It is either 1 year or 3 years,,,

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Re: Citizenship through a GGF-GM-M

Postby johnnyonthespot » 20 Jun 2011, 13:47

It is three years and only works if you have an Italian ancestor up to the "2nd degree" - a grandparent.

The troublesome part is the requirement to reside legally in Italy for the full three year period. This can be very difficult to pull off unless the applicant has substantial assets as he/she would most likely not be allowed to hold a job during the entire three year period.
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Re: Citizenship through a GGF-GM-M

Postby trinasignoriello » 20 Jun 2011, 15:43

not fair! i deserve it....

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Re: Citizenship through a GGF-GM-M

Postby johnnyonthespot » 20 Jun 2011, 15:56

trinasignoriello wrote:not fair! i deserve it....


Prior to the implementation of the modern Italian Constitution on January 1, 1948, Italian women were missing many of the basic rights held by their male counterparts. One of these rights was the right to pass citizenship directly to their children.

It is an unfortunate circumstance which blocks many people from jure sanguinis citizenship recognition. It is, in a sense, no more nor less fair than the situation of someone whose ancestor became a naturalized US citizen days or years prior to the birth of his child, thus breaking the chain of Italian citizenship required for jure sanguinis. Or, someone who naturalized prior to July 1, 1912, thus ending the line for any children born before that date, even those born in the US.

It is, simply, what it is.
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Re: Citizenship through a GGF-GM-M

Postby trinasignoriello » 26 Jun 2011, 23:30

one more question, please.
if my GGF can pass it to my GF, then my GF to my M, can my mom who was born in 1942, pass it to me since I was born in 1969?
Thank you.

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Re: Citizenship through a GGF-GM-M

Postby mler » 27 Jun 2011, 02:06

Most certainly. Would that work for you?

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Re: Citizenship through a GGF-GM-M

Postby trinasignoriello » 27 Jun 2011, 05:40

yes, but GGF became a us citizen after my GF was born. is that still ok? thank you!

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Re: Citizenship through a GGF-GM-M

Postby mler » 27 Jun 2011, 14:32

Works perfectly. :D Your ggf was still a citizen of Italy when his son was born, which allowed him to pass that citizenship to his son and to future generations. Your gf was not precluded from passing his citizenship to your mother in 1942, and in 1969, your mother passed that citizenship to you.

Actually, this is an easier path. It is much more difficult (and expensive) to prove that an ancestor never naturalized. You have to obtain documents of "no record" at the federal, state and county levels and also have to provide census data as confirmation. With a naturalized ancestor, all you need are the naturalization documents, which are easy to obtain. As long as the naturalization took place after the birth of the next in line, all is well.

I'm assuming, of course, that your gf was born in the US. If he were born in Italy, he would have naturalized as a minor with his father, thus ending the Italian line. I add this as clarification, but from your description, it doesn't appear you have a problem.

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Re: Citizenship through a GGF-GM-M

Postby trinasignoriello » 27 Jun 2011, 15:01

thank you! gf was born here in the us! this is awesome news.
only if its not a prob,em, can u suggest which docs i need to obtain? i can make it a lengthy process of a really short one! thanks again. you made my day!!

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Re: Citizenship through a GGF-GM-M

Postby mler » 27 Jun 2011, 16:07

You will need (note that all non-Italian documents must be certified with apostille and must be translated):

For ggf: Italian bc, marriage certificate, certificate of naturalization and/or petition/declation/oath from NARA, death certificate.
For gf: bc, mc, dc (if applicable)
For mom: bc, mc, dc (if applicable)
For you: bc, mc (if applicable), bc's of minor children (if applicable)

You will also need to have any living ascendant sign a statement that he/she never renounced Italian citizenship, and you will do this for all deceased ascendants with the exception of your ggf who did indeed renounce when he naturalized. These forms can be downloaded from the consulate's web page.

Some consulates will also ask for the bc of the spouses of ascendants (though their information is technically not necessary to prove citizenship).

I should also add that some consulates will not recognize citizenship if an ancestor naturalized before 1912, but based on the dates you've provided, I doubt this is an issue for you.

You should also try to obtain an appointment at the consulate asap because there is usually more than a one year wait. It is unlikely that you will need more than a year to obtain the requisite documents. Where will you be applying?

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Re: Citizenship through a GGF-GM-M

Postby trinasignoriello » 27 Jun 2011, 17:03

new york! thank you so much. i am going to call them rghtt now.
have a great day!
and a side note, i believe that ggf naturalized in 1925. sadly, he was returning to italy in 1948 and he died on the ship enroute.

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Re: Citizenship through a GGF-GM-M

Postby trinasignoriello » 27 Jun 2011, 18:51

i have an appt for 24 april. will be in italy this summer, so hopefully i will be able to obtain some documents while there.

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Re: Citizenship through a GGF-GM-M

Postby trinasignoriello » 01 Jul 2011, 03:46

Hi mler.
I don't know why I never thought of going through my GGF on my GF's side... I have copies of GGF's docs and it does indeed show that he naturalized in 1925, and his son was born in 1909! woo hoo!

So, not bad, only 10 months to go before my appointment. I was surprised they had it 'so soon'! I called them as soon as I read your suggestion that I make an appt.

quick question.... i am gathering documents as i type. Do I need anything regarding my grandmother, my mother's mother?
also, any idea about if i were to file/submit docs in Italy, would I have to remain in italy while the process is taking place or could I come back to the US and then fly back to Italy when all is 'ready'? also, do they return the documents?

Thanks again,
Trina


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