35 page Scholarly Report on Italian by decent Citizenship

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
Mike Mo
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 19
Joined: 09 Aug 2011, 23:35

35 page Scholarly Report on Italian by decent Citizenship

Postby Mike Mo » 13 Aug 2011, 16:37

See the link below to a 35 page Scholarly Report on Italian by decent Citizenship. Very high quality report. I'm new to this board so if it was already posted let me know.

This is an excellent report about the history and the future of Italian citizen by decent. According to the article it looks like the "decent" option might soon be eliminated.

Please read it and post your opinion as from what I read it looks like "decent" is in grave danger.

http://eudo-citizenship.eu/docs/Country ... /Italy.pdf
Image

Italia1963
Rookie
Rookie
Posts: 56
Joined: 16 Aug 2011, 23:59

Re: 35 page Scholarly Report on Italian by decent Citizensh

Postby Italia1963 » 20 Aug 2011, 23:47

The author of this report seems to base his theory for a need to re-visit the citizenship laws by bunching the problems posed by lax EU citizenship rules that welcome non-blood Italians and those of us born with Italian blood who want to restore the bond to our ancestor's homeland. In fact, his criticism of us dual citizenship Italians is saved for the last page of his report, saying that since many of us have not even visited Italy or know enough of Italian history and government, we should not have citizenship. I think if anything, most of us are applying for dual citizenship as a way to reconnect with our common history where we will learn more about our re-adopted country.
The Italian government needs to address immigrant problems separate from dual citizenship issues.

User avatar
mler
Master
Master
Posts: 1627
Joined: 01 Apr 2006, 00:00

Re: 35 page Scholarly Report on Italian by decent Citizensh

Postby mler » 21 Aug 2011, 02:12

The author of this report appears to question the value of recognizing the citizenship of those who make their claims based on the citizenship of a distant ancestor, especially since many people who actually reside in Italy are subject to much more stringent regulations. It seems to be purely an opinion based on what he believes is an inherent lack of fairness.

What he does not do is provide any evidence that the laws are subject to change. In reality, there is nothing I have seen that points to a change in citizenship laws as they apply to jure sanguinis candidates.

This certainly does not mean that the laws will NEVER change; never is a long time, and Italian laws have changed several times in the past century and a half. Most of the changes, however, have had the effect of liberalizing the path to citizenship, not the other way around.

It seems to me that the author's opinions fall into the category of wishful thinking. I
really doubt that there is any need for worry.

User avatar
sceaminmonkey
Master
Master
Posts: 500
Joined: 12 Sep 2010, 19:39

Re: 35 page Scholarly Report on Italian by decent Citizensh

Postby sceaminmonkey » 21 Aug 2011, 09:33

this subject seems to come up a lot. not that it matters and not that this statement will change any laws but, I agree with italia1963. I have really connected with my italian roots and I plan on going there asap. with the current laws in place it really does make it hard to cheat the italian government anyway. can't get a pension unless you work there. and to get free healthcare you need to live there but to live there, you really need to speak italian. I am pretty anxious to see what happens though. I wonder if once I am recognized there is ever a chance they will take it away?

User avatar
johnnyonthespot
Master
Master
Posts: 5229
Joined: 04 Aug 2008, 15:01
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: 35 page Scholarly Report on Italian by decent Citizensh

Postby johnnyonthespot » 21 Aug 2011, 13:01

sceaminmonkey wrote:I wonder if once I am recognized there is ever a chance they will take it away?


I honestly cannot image that happening. If I recall correctly, there are now approximately 1 million persons who have gained or regained Italian citizenship in response to changes brought about by the 1992 revisions of laws relating to citizenship. Can you imagine the uproar if they tried to revoke the citizenship of any substantial portion of that group?

Personally, I fully expect the government (Italian) to find a way to tax us instead. Perhaps levy an "administrative" tax on all Italians living abroad, for example. Admit it: if it came down to a matter of paying a €50 or €100 annual tax vs. renouncing your hard fought citizenship, you'd pay the tax. :)
Carmine

My hobby is finding things. Having found most of my own, I am happy to help others find theirs. PM me! :)

User avatar
aulus
Rookie
Rookie
Posts: 27
Joined: 09 Feb 2011, 03:22

Re: 35 page Scholarly Report on Italian by decent Citizensh

Postby aulus » 22 Aug 2011, 05:27

Of course it's highly unlikely that any changes would be applied retroactively to existing citizens. But given the current budgetary situation it seems plausible that they might take actions to further restrict eligibility for future cases if they discover that the newly-recognized Italians have been a net drain on the system.

I wonder if there are any figures on this -- do jure sanguinis citizens contribute more or less than they cost? I'm sure that the USA and Canada as a whole more than pay for themselves, but once you figure in the poorer nations in South America, I wonder what the overall figure would be?

jennabet
Master
Master
Posts: 1034
Joined: 14 Jul 2010, 20:28
Location: Ancestral Homeland - Abruzzo Italy

Re: 35 page Scholarly Report on Italian by decent Citizensh

Postby jennabet » 22 Aug 2011, 08:02

......Personally, I fully expect the government (Italian) to find a way to tax us instead. Perhaps levy an "administrative" tax on all Italians living abroad, for example. Admit it: if it came down to a matter of paying a €50 or €100 annual tax vs. renouncing your hard fought citizenship, you'd pay the tax......

Carmine, aside from doing some research and paperwork, what did you find so "hard fought" about being recognized as an Italian citizen and why do you think it should warrant additional taxes for Italians who live abroad? The only benefit you gain if you don't live in Italy is that you get to vote in an Italian election and you can travel with an Italian passport when you're outside the USA.

Italian citizens are taxed to pay for heathcare, education, retirement, property and other state services, which you don't have access to because you don't live in Italy. So can you tell me just what you think the new taxes you're expecting to be levied should cover?

Yes, I know the consulates are burdened by all the applications from Italian-Americans seeking to become recognized but I'd venture to say they are even MORE burdened by non-Italians seeking visa's and other travel documents. Should those people be taxed too?

When you move to Italy, you can pay your taxes because at that point, you will have representation. As long as you live in the USA, I wouldn't worry about it.

jennabet
Master
Master
Posts: 1034
Joined: 14 Jul 2010, 20:28
Location: Ancestral Homeland - Abruzzo Italy

Re: 35 page Scholarly Report on Italian by decent Citizensh

Postby jennabet » 22 Aug 2011, 08:11

...... it seems plausible that they might take actions to further restrict eligibility for future cases if they discover that the newly-recognized Italians have been a net drain on the system......

Net drain? How do you figure? And same applies to the "poorer" countries in South America? How do you figure they could be a net drain? If anything, when South Americans are recognized, they move immediately to Italy and find work, as their native tongues (Spanish and Portuguese) are similar to Italian so they learn the language quickly. Also, Italians in South America have retained the Latin culture which allows them to assimilate into the Italian life style more quickly. As for them being "poor", Italians are known to do very well for themselves wherever they emigrate so they are not poor. "Poor Italians" from south America is a big myth perpetrated by North Americans who just can't get along with their Southern neighbors, starting with Mexico on down.

User avatar
Squigy
Master
Master
Posts: 724
Joined: 02 Jun 2009, 06:05
Location: Texas, USA (Born in Pennsylvania)

Re: 35 page Scholarly Report on Italian by decent Citizensh

Postby Squigy » 22 Aug 2011, 09:29

If I may say something: According to the principles of jure sanguinis, we've ALL been citizens since birth, correct? If they made it so we could no longer "activate" that citizenship, wouldn't that be stripping us of the citizenship we already have? Isn't it more likely, if they were to change the laws, that they would make it so citizenship is no longer granted to those born after the date they changed them on?
My Italian surnames:

Caserta: Maietta, Rossano, Tessitore, Negro, Peluso, Musone

Campobasso: D'Andrea, Barile

Catanzaro: Fiorelli/Fiorillo, Romito

User avatar
johnnyonthespot
Master
Master
Posts: 5229
Joined: 04 Aug 2008, 15:01
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: 35 page Scholarly Report on Italian by decent Citizensh

Postby johnnyonthespot » 22 Aug 2011, 14:49

jennabet,

Hard fought? If you ask most of the people who have gone through jure sanguinis recognition, they will tell you that the total cost of doing so (without using any outside services) was in the range of $1,000 and up. And that is only if you live within reasonable distance of your consulate; I have read of people who spent more than $1,000 just on airfare and hotels to get to the consulate for an appointment. Here in Connecticut, a single apostille now costs $40.00; a typical GF-F-Applicant case can easily cost several hundred dollars in documents alone. I had to make three trips to the NYC consulate plus a fourth for my passport - each trip required a 30 mile drive to New Haven, train to Grand Central Terminal, and return plus a day's lost pay. Again, a substantial cost.

As to Italy taxing us, there is nothing to stop them from doing so, regardless of whether or not we are a net burden to the state. After all, the US taxes its citizens on worldwide income; a few days of debate in the legislature, a few signatures, and Italy could begin to do the same. I am not saying they will, only that there is nothing to stop them from doing so.

Speaking of being a net burden, I have no doubt that if my wife and I were to retire to Italy, get on national healthcare, and ultimately go through the typical end-of-life medical issues that face most people (diabetes, heart conditions, cancer, whatever) - I have no doubt that we will become a net burden on the Italian state, having contributed zero or nearly zero euros in taxes. Yes, I feel guilty about this and we are not even over there yet.
Carmine

My hobby is finding things. Having found most of my own, I am happy to help others find theirs. PM me! :)

User avatar
mler
Master
Master
Posts: 1627
Joined: 01 Apr 2006, 00:00

Re: 35 page Scholarly Report on Italian by decent Citizensh

Postby mler » 22 Aug 2011, 15:52

All interesting stuff, but we won't know till it happens--if it ever happens.

I tend to think that the focus of Italian citizenship law will continue to be on those non-Italians who emigrate to Italy from other countries and those children of foreigners who are born in Italy.

I don't see any inclination, at this time, to change the definition of what consitutes citizenship from birth. If this definition does become modified, I would suspect that it would be geared toward limiting the number of generations through which one can apply, but who knows.

As far as taxes are concerned, Carmine, shhhhhhhhh! Let's not give them any ideas. :D


Return to “Emigration, Immigration, Naturalization and Italian citizenship”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests