Difficulty acquiring Great Grandfather's Birth Cert- Naples

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jmrossi
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Difficulty acquiring Great Grandfather's Birth Cert- Naples

Postby jmrossi » 22 Aug 2011, 17:38

My sister and I are in the process of applying for Italian citizenship through our Great Grandfather, Ernesto Rossi. We have every document (in the process of getting necessary certifications and apostilles) EXCEPT his birth certificate from Italy. We were successful in obtaining my great grandmother's birth certificate (Maria Rosina Guariino, who he married in NYC) from Naples, but they were unable to locate Ernesto's based on the dates we provided. We realized based on further research that the year we submitted may have been wrong. We now understand his birth date to be circa 1868. We have a family friend living in Naples who we have authorized to file the requests in Naples, but unfortunately we have been informed that the building has been condemned and the public is now unable to enter the building to file subsequent searches (even though the employees are still working inside).

Here are my questions:

Has anyone else faced this challenge of the building being closed to the public, and is there another way to file the request?

IF, we are still unable to acquire Ernesto's birth certificate, is there another way to qualify being that we have all other docs except the Italian birth certificate?

What is the process for and timeline for scheduling an appointment to open a case? Would it be wise to open the case while still on the quest for the birth certificate? (I am currently living in NYC, but will be studying abroad throughout the year and am hoping to coordinate an appointment for a time when I know I will be in NYC).

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Johnmichael Rossi

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johnnyonthespot
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Re: Difficulty acquiring Great Grandfather's Birth Cert- Nap

Postby johnnyonthespot » 22 Aug 2011, 18:01

NYC appointments are typically scheduled as much as one year in the future, so go ahead and schedule it now. Too bad you didn't do so already, but that is water under the bridge...

Are you sure Ernesto was actually born in Comune di Napoli? There are any number of smaller comuni surrounding Napoli and you must submit your request to the correct comune or you will not find the documents.

As a rule, only the Italian birth certificate, an Italian passport issued after the birth of the next-in-line (thus indicating the passport holder was still a citizen), or an Italian certificato di cittadinanza (certificate of citizenship) will be accepted by the consulate.
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Re: Difficulty acquiring Great Grandfather's Birth Cert- Nap

Postby johnnyonthespot » 22 Aug 2011, 18:06

Is that your family tree (member name andrew14455) on ancestry.com? There is a naturalization petition pictured there which has Ernesto's date of birth as Aug 10, 1868 in Naples.
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Re: Difficulty acquiring Great Grandfather's Birth Cert- Nap

Postby johnnyonthespot » 22 Aug 2011, 23:48

One more point: the Rossi surname is the #1 most common surname in Italy; see http://www.italianames.com/italian_surnames.php

For a graphical illustration, take a look at this map which shows the current prevalence of a surname which was recently discussed on this board, http://www.gens.labo.net/en/cognomi/genera.html?cognome=SACCULLO

Now, look at the same map for the Rossi surname: http://www.gens.labo.net/en/cognomi/genera.html?cognome=ROSSI

What this means to you is that the consulate is going to be extremely picky about ensuring that any documents you eventually come up with on the Rossi side absolutely match up in every way - dates, parent's names, and so on, and so on.

It also means that the stato civile office in Napoli is going to be looking for a very good match-up between the record you request and the records they find in the registers. In a smaller comune and a less common name, the stato civile official might pull the closest matching record and send it off to you with a short note saying, "this must be the one you are looking for." But, with a name like Rossi, in a city the size of Napoli, there might be 20, 30, or more "close" matches in any given year. :!:
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Re: Difficulty acquiring Great Grandfather's Birth Cert- Nap

Postby sceaminmonkey » 23 Aug 2011, 03:39

Let me share my experience with Naples.

I hired a bunch of researchers to contact naples and find the certificate. they both told me that naples told them there was no record. finally I hired another forum member to also contact them. he called and had to bust some chops. two days later the certificate magically appeared. I knew my ggf was born in naples though. I even knew the street he lived on. it is true that he might have been born in a smaller commune as it is easier then telling people you were born in Cimitile for example. my impression from the experience though is that the more detailed I got with the commune and the more I had someone bust the balls the closer we got . Keep in mind Naples is a large city and these people do have to deal with other day to day things with the citizens that live there. but I would have someone keep calling and as carmine is saying be sure that he was actually born in the commune.

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Re: Difficulty acquiring Great Grandfather's Birth Cert- Nap

Postby jmrossi » 26 Aug 2011, 18:49

@johnnyonthespot: thanks for the advice and great links...
I have called for an appointment and the earliest they had was July 13, 2012... I guess that gives me a year to locate Ernesto's birth certificate. I am hoping to go to Naples in late Fall... is there a good site that provides a listing of all of the commune in and around Naples?

@sceaminmonkey: would you be willing to share contact information for the forum member that you hired?

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Re: Difficulty acquiring Great Grandfather's Birth Cert- Nap

Postby johnnyonthespot » 26 Aug 2011, 19:02

Comuni in the province of Naples: http://en.comuni-italiani.it/063/index.html

I may be wrong, but I believe screaminmonkey used forum member Riccardo Bruno's services (ricbru - http://www.italiangenealogy.com/forum/ucp.php?i=pm&mode=compose&u=9463))
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Re: Difficulty acquiring Great Grandfather's Birth Cert- Nap

Postby johnnyonthespot » 26 Aug 2011, 19:40

If Ernesto died after about 1937, you may want to see about obtaining a copy of his original social security application. This can be expected to show his parent's names, his date of birth, as well as other useful stuff.

See http://genealogy.about.com/od/online_records/a/ss5_request.htm

If he lived to a very old age (1962+), you may even find him by searching the Social Security Death Index at http://ssdi.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/ssdi.cgi :)
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Re: Difficulty acquiring Great Grandfather's Birth Cert- Nap

Postby sceaminmonkey » 26 Aug 2011, 19:41

I did use Riccardo. I used other websites besides him that I found through forums and google. I was not happy with a single one of them. I used riccardo for a positive-negative letter with apostle and for my ggf birth certificate. I was very happy and he contacts you frequently. I feel like personal researchers are the best way to go if you are not going to order them yourself. also naples is so big and busy they have other things to do. when I ordered my ggm certificate from Cimitile ,Napoli...... the town was so small i got it instantly with a letter from the mayor about the wrong dates.

ricbru @ gmail.com

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Re: Difficulty acquiring Great Grandfather's Birth Cert- Nap

Postby KarenChristino » 27 Aug 2011, 23:21

I wrote to Napoli in late June for a positive-negative letter and they responded right away -- the quickest response I've had from Italy. I would continue with your research to pin down a better date of birth before you write or go over. You have a whole year and I'm sure you'll turn something more up. And you can always hire someone.

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Re: Difficulty acquiring Great Grandfather's Birth Cert- Nap

Postby sceaminmonkey » 27 Aug 2011, 23:43

your positive negative letter........ were you looking for them to write that no one lived there or that two different dates are the same person?

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Re: Difficulty acquiring Great Grandfather's Birth Cert- Nap

Postby KarenChristino » 28 Aug 2011, 01:48

Just the negative -- that he wasn't born there -- which they provided!

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Re: Difficulty acquiring Great Grandfather's Birth Cert- Nap

Postby sceaminmonkey » 28 Aug 2011, 02:10

My positive negative says my people are one and the same. I'm sure it is easier for Naples to send a letter than to go looking through 100 year old books for your ancestor. My experience with Naples was not a positive one.

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Re: Difficulty acquiring Great Grandfather's Birth Cert- Nap

Postby jalapeno89 » 28 Aug 2011, 07:37

I encountered a similar problem, and was able to et around it. I have to preface that i did go through the Houston consulate that it notoriously easy. My great grandfathers birth records were never found, he was not registered in Naples, and because we are jewish, baptismal records did not exist (for obvious reasons). The way we got around this was to request military records from the province. They did have a record of him because of the mandatory conscription at that time. These records included date and place of birth, which incidentally were what i knew, but records were never found. The consulate accepted this in conjunction with a written non record found letter from the town. I also had my great grandparents marriage record from New York, showing that they were both non citizens as well as census records showing them as non citizens.. this worked for me... maybe it could work for you? worth a try i guess? good luck.


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