Dual Citizenship - Lots of Questions

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
reboot365
Rookie
Rookie
Posts: 30
Joined: 23 Aug 2011, 16:45

Dual Citizenship - Lots of Questions

Postby reboot365 » 23 Aug 2011, 17:12

So, I found out this week that I might be eligible for dual citizenship through jure sanguinis. This has led to a lot of questions, so I was wondering if anyone could answer / comment on these.

1. Am I eligible? From what I can tell, I am, but here is my situation as I know it so far.

GGF born in Italy (1886)
GGF and GGM married in Italy (1906)
GGF moved to US (year unknown, but guessing early 1910s)
GM born in US (1918)
GGF naturalized in US (1930)
GM married US citizen in US (mid 1940s)
F born in US (1952)
I was born in US (1986)
GM, F, and I have never renounced our citizenship (heck, we didn't even think it was possible until we came across GGF's naturalization papers this weekend)

2. Certified Copy of Marriage Certificate
I have a copy of my GGF and GGM's marriage certificate from Pettorano sul Gizio. It states when they were married, their names, and their parents names. They were married in 1906, but the copy I have (which has the comune stamp on it) is from 1933. I'm guessing my GGM requested it because my GGF died that year. Would this suffice for the marriage certificate requirement, or do I need a more up to date copy?

3. Finding City of Birth
I know that my GGF and GGM were married in Pettorano sul Gizio. I also have their exact dates of birth and what I believe are their parents names on the marriage certificate. However, all of my frantic research so far has come up empty as to where they were born. Best guess is in the same town, but when looking at websites that will procure certificates for you, they require that you know what town they were from. Do you know what people have done in this situation?

4. Citizenship Appointment
I got an appointment for the NY consulate (I live in NYC) today for June. I asked if my dad could apply with me since my lineage includes him, and that he also lives in NY state and falls under their jurisdiction. They told me on the phone absolutely not, that only one person is allowed and that he would need a separate appointment. I've seen elsewhere on this forum that people could bring multiple people to the same appointment, so I'm wondering if I was misinformed or if NY is just really, really strict.

Thanks in advance to any help you can provide.

Italia1963
Rookie
Rookie
Posts: 56
Joined: 16 Aug 2011, 23:59

Re: Dual Citizenship - Lots of Questions

Postby Italia1963 » 24 Aug 2011, 22:42

If you write to the comune where the marriage took place, maybe they can copy the entry in their books. The entry tells where the bride and groom were born or at least it did for my ggf when he was married in the 1890s.
This is a great book that you can download free online on reading Italian documents
http://familyhistory.byu.edu/Downloads/ ... ion_Guide/

You write that you just made an appt. with the NYC Italian consulate for June...June of next year? I didnt know it took that long, I thought it would just take a few months..I guess I better call for an appt. now.

User avatar
johnnyonthespot
Master
Master
Posts: 5229
Joined: 04 Aug 2008, 15:01
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: Dual Citizenship - Lots of Questions

Postby johnnyonthespot » 24 Aug 2011, 23:43

1) Based on the lineage you described, you should be good to go.

2a) I would go for a new marriage certificate; you are going to need the birth certificates ("atti" or "acts") anyway, so the marriage certificate will be an easy addition.

2b) There is no reason to use a paid service to obtain this document. In 95% of cases, you can get it yourself by simply writing to the comune.

3a) As the other poster mentioned, there is a very high likelyhood that the place of birth is the same as the place of marriage. It is possible however that the marriage took place in your GGM's place of birth (typical) and that GGF was from a nearby comune. Again, as the other poster mentioned, the orignal marriage act in "copia integrale" format will give the place of birth for both GGM and GGF.

3b) See 2b, above. I would be happy to assist you with the details. Ask here, or PM me if you wish.

4) In fact, the NYC consulate prefers that living ancestors apply first and on their own. Therefore, you will find it easiest if your father keeps the June appointment (you can tag along for support). The consulate will then take one of two approaches:

a) most likely they will take all the documents and jure sanguinis application for your father. When and if his application is approved (his Italian citizenship is "recognized"), your father will then be allowed to register your birth (as well as that of his other children, if any). Your own citizenship will be strictly a formality and approved within a week or so.

b) when your father's appointment is winding down, he can ask, "can I submit my son's birth certificate now as well?" More than likely he will be told no, but it won't hurt to ask. :)

For your June appointment, you will need several documents:

1. GGF's Italian birth certificate
2. GGF's Italian marriage certificate
3. GGF's death certificate
4. GGF's naturalization petition, oath of allegiance, and/or actual naturalization certificate
5. GM's birth certificate
6. GM's marriage certificate
7. GM's death certificate
8. Father's birth certificate
9. Father's marriage certificate
10. Your own birth certificate
11. Your marriage certificate, if applicable
12. Your children's birth certificates, if applicable

Is your mother still living? If your parents married prior to April 27, 1983, then she will be automatically granted Italian citizenship as soon as your father's is recognized. Hence, you will need her birth certificate as well.

All US birth, marriage, and death certificates must be in "long form" which usually indicates a copy of the original document with all detail as opposed to an extract with limited info.

All US documents other than the naturalization materials must be submitted with Italian translations and must be apostilled by the state where the document originated. If you are not sure what that means, just ask.

Most consulate websites state that birth and death certificates are also required for persons not in the direct lineage (your GGM, GF, M). NYC has a long history of not requiring these, not collecting them, not even looking at them.
Carmine

My hobby is finding things. Having found most of my own, I am happy to help others find theirs. PM me! :)

reboot365
Rookie
Rookie
Posts: 30
Joined: 23 Aug 2011, 16:45

Re: Dual Citizenship - Lots of Questions

Postby reboot365 » 25 Aug 2011, 16:14

Thanks for the responses, they are both really helpful.

Italia1963:

Thanks for the link. And yes, it is for June 2012. I was informed that it was the first available appointment, so I would book it now.

johnny:

I will take you up on your offer on how to get records from the comune. I found their website and email address, but I do need help in figuring out what the appropriate requests would be, as well as how payment works.

And now onto a second round of questions...

1. As for the NYC consulate wanting my living ancestors to apply first, I don't think that would work out. My grandmother is still alive and in NY state, but at 93 she can't travel. My father on the other hand is treating it as more of my pet project. I mean, he's not going to renounce it or anything, but this is fully on me.

Would NYC not let me apply if I have living ancestors in their jurisdiction, or is it just not preferred? If I can still apply by myself, would my parents (yes, my parents married before 1983, so my mother is eligible) and grandmother automatically get citizenship?

2. If my parents automatically get citizenship, since they are retired, could this affect any Social Security retirement / disability, state pensions, or taxes?

3. I saw something about NYC requiring exemplified copies along with the certified copy and the apostille. What is an exemplified copy, and do I really need it? And I couldn't tell if this is applicable, but all US records in my lineage are from NY state.

Thanks again :)

User avatar
johnnyonthespot
Master
Master
Posts: 5229
Joined: 04 Aug 2008, 15:01
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: Dual Citizenship - Lots of Questions

Postby johnnyonthespot » 25 Aug 2011, 17:46

1a) You can indicate that your grandmother, at her advanced age, is not interested in her own right to Italian citizenship. The consulate still has to go through the motions for her, but she does not need to partake, so to speak. Quick lesson: you are applying yourself -> father -> grandmother -> great-grandfather, so what the consulate needs to do is to first ascertain your great-grandfather's true citizenship status, then determine your grandmother's eligibility, then your father's, then your own. In essence, we always apply through our parent, no matter how many generations back we are reaching to find an original Italian ancestor.

1b) However, if your parents are interested in citizenship, then the consulate is going to want your dad to be the primary applicant. You may not be able to get around this; at some point, you should start telephoning or emailing the consulate and make inquiries. Do not rely on the so-called Help line as you are unlikely to get accurate info. Try here instead: Ufficio Stato Civile (Civil Status Office) Email: statocivile.newyork@esteri.it Tel: (212) 439-8602

2) I am neither a lawyer nor a tax accountant, however I believe I can state categorically that Italian citizenship will not negatively affect your parents in any meaningful way. It would give them the ability to reside in Italy and join the national healthcare system and would make it far easier than otherwise to reside anywhere else in the EU. If your parents are extremely wealthy, they may wish to consult a skilled financial adviser in advance.

3) Exemplification applies only to certain documents (such as birth certificates) issued by New York City as opposed to any other part of New York State. If you will have documents which originate in NYC, learn about this procedure before starting so that you do not waste time and money.

For the Italian birth and marriage certificates, could you post your great-grandparents full names and dates of birth and marriage? If you would rather not post in the open forum, you can PM me (just click the "PM" button to the right, under my avatar).
Carmine

My hobby is finding things. Having found most of my own, I am happy to help others find theirs. PM me! :)


Return to “Emigration, Immigration, Naturalization and Italian citizenship”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest