COURT ORDER OR LETTER FROM JUDGE?

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COURT ORDER OR LETTER FROM JUDGE?

Postby Italia1963 » 15 Oct 2011, 01:00

As we all know, when an "error" appears on a vital record document, the Consulate requires that the record be amended, or at the very least, a Judge issuing an order stating that the indiidual/s with errors on the document are the same person.
Has anyone have any experience with getting such a court order from a judge, and would you know if a letter from a State Supreme Court Justice would suffice the Consulate requirements?
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Re: COURT ORDER OR LETTER FROM JUDGE?

Postby rjnigro » 15 Oct 2011, 15:14

I've sent you a PM
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Re: COURT ORDER OR LETTER FROM JUDGE?

Postby sceaminmonkey » 16 Oct 2011, 09:54

ex part office in nyc can help
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Re: COURT ORDER OR LETTER FROM JUDGE?

Postby gigimarie6 » 01 Feb 2012, 17:25

Hello I know this post is a bit old, but I am also running into the same problem, the consulate (philadelphia) told me I need a 'letter from the courts' which sounds ridiculously ambiguous to me. Can anyone help clarify how to go about these court orders/letter/affidavits?
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Re: COURT ORDER OR LETTER FROM JUDGE?

Postby sceaminmonkey » 01 Feb 2012, 18:07

you got to file a lawsuit against your dead ancestor.
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Re: COURT ORDER OR LETTER FROM JUDGE?

Postby zsnyder » 02 Feb 2012, 00:20

gigimarie6 wrote:Hello I know this post is a bit old, but I am also running into the same problem, the consulate (philadelphia) told me I need a 'letter from the courts' which sounds ridiculously ambiguous to me. Can anyone help clarify how to go about these court orders/letter/affidavits?


What document(s) did they ask you to correct?
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Re: COURT ORDER OR LETTER FROM JUDGE?

Postby gigimarie6 » 02 Feb 2012, 13:09

Well I'm not sure what documents exactly...
The birth dates of my GGF's birth certificate (& potentially marriage certificate) from Italy is February 21, 1881. While his documents from the US: declaration of intent (therefore, his naturalisation papers) and death certificate say February 18,1881. After a phone call to the Philadelphia Embassy I was told it must be fixed via 'court order', when I asked what this was or how one goes about it my answer was, "I don't know"... glad I paid for that answer :roll:
So what documents exactly is a good question since I'm under the impression one cannot change the Italian birth certificate nor the naturalisation records. I was thinking just a letter from the judge ruling that despite the 3 day difference in birthdays these documents are in-fact the same person?
Do I really need to file a lawsuit against my dead ancestor to do that? That sounds so ridiculous, and kind of disrespectful. But if thats what it takes....
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Re: COURT ORDER OR LETTER FROM JUDGE?

Postby rjnigro » 02 Feb 2012, 15:41

Since you're documents are Pennsylvania, you might want to look here:
http://expatsinitaly.com/phpbbforum/vie ... f=7&t=9203

In New York/NYC one files an action in the Ex-Parte section of the NYS Supreme Court. Their is no "defendant". One files for a declaratory judgement.
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Re: COURT ORDER OR LETTER FROM JUDGE?

Postby zsnyder » 02 Feb 2012, 20:19

gigimarie6 wrote:Do I really need to file a lawsuit against my dead ancestor to do that? That sounds so ridiculous, and kind of disrespectful. But if thats what it takes....


Why he said this is beyond me and simply not true. When you need to correct a document you file against the department that issued the original document. I had to do this to fix numerous errors.

I don't think any court or department in the US would have jurisdiction to change your GGF's birth records as they are from Italy. I'm also pretty sure that you can't change information on naturalization records.

Here's what I'd do:

I'd suggest obtaining his marriage record and see if his birthdate is listed. You could also try contacting the church where his birth was recorded and see if they can send you a copy of that. There could have been an error in transcribing the date or your GGF just didn't know his correct date of birth. Another possibility is that he was born on the 18th but the birth wasn't recorded until the 21st.

Once you have these in hand, compare all of the dates. You'll then want to go back to his comune and request a letter that no one with his name was born in that comune between the birthdate listed on his birth certificate and the one on the naturalization forms.

Then contact the court where he filed his Declaration of Intent and ask for a letter that no one with the same name and dates of birth listed above filed in that time period. Do the same at NARA and USCIS.

It's a total pain but you need as much information as you can get your hands on to build a case.

Then you'll file in court asking that the judge find that you're GGF on his birth certificate and your GGF on the naturalization records are one and the same. If you're successful, that should satisfy the consulates request.
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Re: COURT ORDER OR LETTER FROM JUDGE?

Postby rjnigro » 02 Feb 2012, 20:49

Then contact the court where he filed his Declaration of Intent and ask for a letter that no one with the same name and dates of birth listed above filed in that time period. Do the same at NARA and USCIS


NARA issued documents can not be amended at all. The Petition/Declaration of Intent via USCIS can only be amended by the person whose Petition and Declaration it is. If the person is deceased, USCIS will not make any change, amendment or issue any letter that the person is "one and the same". Going to the Court (in my case Southern District NY) got me no where. They have no back up documents in their files and will not issue any clarification letter.

Some consulates will accept a "postive/negative" letter from the Commune. New York has been more stringent requiring a letter from a judge or a Court order declaring the person as one and the same.
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Re: COURT ORDER OR LETTER FROM JUDGE?

Postby gigimarie6 » 04 Feb 2012, 11:55

Thank you SO MUCH for the information! I really appreciate the guidance!! What a feat this has turned into, but it will be so worth it. How long did it end up taking you from the point of your appointment to receiving your letter or approval?
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Re: COURT ORDER OR LETTER FROM JUDGE?

Postby rjnigro » 04 Feb 2012, 16:09

My appointment was in early November and received the letter of recognition at the end of Dec
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Re: COURT ORDER OR LETTER FROM JUDGE?

Postby sceaminmonkey » 05 Feb 2012, 06:53

I got a letter pertaining to a naturalization document, in my case the defendant is actually listed online as my GGF who's naturalization certificate it was. I am sorry I can not be more of a help as far as phily goes but the expats forum post that rnigro posted seems to be your best bet. In my case I went back and forth to a million offices and actually had to argue that since my ggf was naturalized in that same supreme court it was a clerical error on their part which is why they issued the letter. I also think the staff at the court got sick of me harassing them. pm me if you have any questions that I can answer !

good luck!
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Re: COURT ORDER OR LETTER FROM JUDGE?

Postby sceaminmonkey » 05 Feb 2012, 06:56

also i want to point out a lot of times the courts try to say this is a federal court issue since its usics. I went to federal court and the usics. they told me it was supreme court. don't let them dump off this on the other. find out exactly where he was naturalized and go to the issuing authority!
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Re: COURT ORDER OR LETTER FROM JUDGE?

Postby reboot365 » 17 Feb 2012, 20:16

rjnigro wrote:Since you're documents are Pennsylvania, you might want to look here:
http://expatsinitaly.com/phpbbforum/vie ... f=7&t=9203

In New York/NYC one files an action in the Ex-Parte section of the NYS Supreme Court. Their is no "defendant". One files for a declaratory judgement.


rjnigro, can you explain more about the NY State (not NYC) process? My GM's birth certificate lists her father as Frank Williams instead of Francesco Guglielmi. They won't change it, or put an AKA. They told me a court order is my only option. I'm concerned that since I'm applying at the NYC consulate that they won't accept her BC, which would ruin the application as that is part of the direct line. Bare minimum I would like to show that they are one in the same.
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