Original Naturalization Certificate Not Good Enough for NYC

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
26 posts • Page 1 of 21, 2

Original Naturalization Certificate Not Good Enough for NYC

Postby reboot365 » 21 Jun 2012, 16:37

So, I just had my citizenship appointment in NYC. I got rejected for two reasons. One was that my GGF's name was anglicized on my GM's BC - I expected that one, and am working on getting a court order. But what I didn't expect was this...

I was asked for the naturalization document. So I handed him the original, he looked at it, asked if I had a photocopy of it (I did), and handed him that. He stamped the copy and handed me back the original, and I thought that was the end of it.

Then, at the end of the appointment, he said that I needed certified copies of the petition and oath because the date of birth is not on the certificate. I told him I had them, he asked why I hadn't handed them over before, and I said because you didn't ask for it. And sure enough, there is a 1, that's right, a 1 day difference in date of birth. So now I need a court order stating that the person the on naturalization document is the same as the person the Italian BC, and further I need to reach out the commune and have them give me a confirmation that no one was born with his name in that town on the off-by-one-date day.

So, in conclusion, if you have the original, you still need the petition and oath. And if the petition and oath date of birth are off from the Italian BC, you need a court order confirming identity and a statement from the commune saying no one was born in that town on that wrong date with that exact name.

I wish I was making this up.
reboot365
Rookie
Rookie
 
Posts: 30
Joined: 23 Aug 2011, 16:45

Re: Original Naturalization Certificate Not Good Enough for

Postby mler » 21 Jun 2012, 18:37

They seem to be finding new and improved ways to make things difficult. So sorry.
User avatar
mler
Master
Master
 
Posts: 1465
Joined: 01 Apr 2006, 00:00

Re: Original Naturalization Certificate Not Good Enough for

Postby rjnigro » 21 Jun 2012, 21:46

Did you get the name of the person you worked with?
rjnigro
Rookie
Rookie
 
Posts: 74
Joined: 15 Jun 2011, 14:24

Re: Original Naturalization Certificate Not Good Enough for

Postby reboot365 » 21 Jun 2012, 23:05

Yes, his name was Tony. Also, it seemed like this policy wasn't brand new as he provided me with a document to fax to the commune to request the proof that no one else was born on that date with that name.
reboot365
Rookie
Rookie
 
Posts: 30
Joined: 23 Aug 2011, 16:45

Re: Original Naturalization Certificate Not Good Enough for

Postby KarenChristino » 22 Jun 2012, 17:22

Reboot,

Search this forum as I recall that last year there were a few people who posted regarding this issue. Perhaps screaminmonkey was one, and I believe he succeeded in getting something from the Court Clerks (without having to actually Petition the Court).

I had a similar situation so was paying attention to it at the time and went ahead and got a statement from the comune that there was no one else with the same name born on the slightly different birth date. However there were so many errors that I decided not to submit it since my GF never actually naturalized.

Is your GM's BC from the Municipal Archives? If so, you should try to get a letter from the Director stating the correct original name. I believe JavaisLife and perhaps others wrote about this last year. So try to search those posts, too, before you think about going to Court.

K
User avatar
KarenChristino
Veteran
Veteran
 
Posts: 202
Joined: 19 Jul 2010, 14:26
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: Original Naturalization Certificate Not Good Enough for

Postby jennabet » 23 Jun 2012, 12:03

.....Then, at the end of the appointment, he said that I needed certified copies of the petition and oath because the date of birth is not on the certificate. I told him I had them, he asked why I hadn't handed them over before, and I said because you didn't ask for it. And sure enough, there is a 1, that's right, a 1 day difference in date of birth. So now I need a court order stating that the person the on naturalization document is the same as the person the Italian BC, and further I need to reach out the commune and have them give me a confirmation that no one was born with his name in that town on the off-by-one-date day......

Did you ever hear of the old adage, "Honesty is the best policy"? Why would you ever think you could pull a "fast one" on an Italian consular officer? Would you try that with an American offical too? Any wonder the New York consulate has so many checks and balances in place. People like youself have made it extremely difficult for others.
jennabet
Master
Master
 
Posts: 811
Joined: 14 Jul 2010, 20:28
Location: Ancestral Homeland - Abruzzo Italy

Re: Original Naturalization Certificate Not Good Enough for

Postby mler » 23 Jun 2012, 13:54

Why would you assume that reboot was trying to pull a "fast one". The rule of thumb is that you present the documents when, and in the order, requested. When the consular officer asked for the preliminary papers, they were presented.

It appears that the consular officer was quite matter of fact about this minor discrepancy. He is well aware (as we all are) that it is not uncommon for minor date discrepancies to appear on Italian birth records because the date of birth is not necessarily the date on the certificate. So often births were registered several days after the fact. Many Italians used their actual birth date when completing forms, and that is what creates these frequent problems. (My husband has always used his registered date as his birthdate; he says it makes him three days younger.)

In any case, the fact that the consular officer was ready with the appropriate form is in indication that he understands this issue and recognizes that it is easily corrected. He is simply dotting all the i's and crossing all the t's.
User avatar
mler
Master
Master
 
Posts: 1465
Joined: 01 Apr 2006, 00:00

Re: Original Naturalization Certificate Not Good Enough for

Postby jennabet » 23 Jun 2012, 14:43

.....Why would you assume that reboot was trying to pull a "fast one". The rule of thumb is that you present the documents when, and in the order, requested. When the consular officer asked for the preliminary papers, they were presented......

Nonsense. If the immigrant followed through and took the oath, the documents come as a set. OK, so the applicant had the original. But if he had to order them, did he have to do so one at a time? I don't think so. Would he have received them separately? I don't think so. It's clear to me that he deliberately held something back because he had a discrepancy that he didn't want noticed. It would not be normal procedure for the officer to ask for a "set" of documents to be handed over one at a time anyway. If it were, why did he come back and ask the applicant why he didn't submit them altogether? It's clear to me the applicant was trying to get away with something and I'm sure the consul is aware of it as well. Perhaps this applicant shouldn't hold his breath waiting for his case to process. If he tried to deceive me, I wouldn't do anything for him.
jennabet
Master
Master
 
Posts: 811
Joined: 14 Jul 2010, 20:28
Location: Ancestral Homeland - Abruzzo Italy

Re: Original Naturalization Certificate Not Good Enough for

Postby mler » 23 Jun 2012, 15:14

No the documents do not come as a set. The new citizen receives the certificate only. Preliminary documents are retained by the government but certified copies can be obtained through NARA. Copies of the Naturalization Certificate are not on file with NARA and are obtained through the USCIS. Separate processes to obtain separate sets of documents.

If the consular officer asks for the certificate, that's what should be given. If he asks for preliminary papers, the preliminary papers should be presented. If someone asked my husband to prove that he naturalized, he would present his naturalization certificate. In fact, the certificate was used to prove his naturalization the first time he obtained his US passport. Apparently, it was sufficient evidence for the US government because my husband obtained his passport without ever having to request his preliminary papers.
User avatar
mler
Master
Master
 
Posts: 1465
Joined: 01 Apr 2006, 00:00

Re: Original Naturalization Certificate Not Good Enough for

Postby jennabet » 23 Jun 2012, 15:31

Again, why did the officer come back and ask why he didn't hand them in altogether?

And why are you equating your husband's situation with this applicant's? The applicant is not the person who was naturalized. I don't see the correlation at all.
jennabet
Master
Master
 
Posts: 811
Joined: 14 Jul 2010, 20:28
Location: Ancestral Homeland - Abruzzo Italy

Re: Original Naturalization Certificate Not Good Enough for

Postby mler » 23 Jun 2012, 16:07

He didn't submit them because he wasn't asked for them and that was reboot's correct response. I mention my husba dP to demonstrate that the certificate alone is generally accepted as proof of Ucitizenship and that it is not a part of a larger packet.

In any case it seems rather uncharitable to assume that anyone is deliberately being deceptive based on the simple fact that he did not submit a document until he was asked for it.
User avatar
mler
Master
Master
 
Posts: 1465
Joined: 01 Apr 2006, 00:00

Re: Original Naturalization Certificate Not Good Enough for

Postby jennabet » 23 Jun 2012, 17:25

......In any case it seems rather uncharitable to assume that anyone is deliberately being deceptive based on the simple fact that he did not submit a document until he was asked for it......

It might be uncharitable if the documents deliberately held back had NOT contained an important descrepancy. But they did, thereby giving a good reason for a person who doesn't have a problem being deceptive to be just that -- deceptive. I'm sure the officer saw it exactly that way, Italians being the judges of good character that they are.
jennabet
Master
Master
 
Posts: 811
Joined: 14 Jul 2010, 20:28
Location: Ancestral Homeland - Abruzzo Italy

Re: Original Naturalization Certificate Not Good Enough for

Postby kontessa » 23 Jun 2012, 20:31

jennabet wrote: Italians being the judges of good character that they are.


To be more precise, would that be all Italians?
That just might be a misuse of a statistic, perhaps even a sweeping overgeneralization. :shock:
User avatar
kontessa
Elite
Elite
 
Posts: 304
Joined: 16 Apr 2010, 19:05

Re: Original Naturalization Certificate Not Good Enough for

Postby jennabet » 23 Jun 2012, 23:20

Well, then maybe we can leave out some Italian-Americans. The Italians I live with in Italy know how to evaluate good character and we use the Italian honor system every day.
jennabet
Master
Master
 
Posts: 811
Joined: 14 Jul 2010, 20:28
Location: Ancestral Homeland - Abruzzo Italy

Re: Original Naturalization Certificate Not Good Enough for

Postby mler » 23 Jun 2012, 23:26

Italian Honor System????
User avatar
mler
Master
Master
 
Posts: 1465
Joined: 01 Apr 2006, 00:00

Next

26 posts • Page 1 of 21, 2

Return to Emigration, Immigration, Naturalization and Italian citizenship

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 2 guests

 
Copyright © 2014. www.ItalianGenealogy.com.