I Just Beat the 1948 Rule

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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I Just Beat the 1948 Rule

Postby longabardi.hasbrouck » 11 Jul 2012, 16:38

Well, really my attorney Luigi Paiano did. For the benefit of those that are in the position I was in, I will detail the entire process...

This whole thing started about 18 months ago when I first discovered that I was ineligible for Italian citizenship for two reasons. First, my GGM married a US citizen before 1948, so she lost her Italian citizenship. Secondly, even if she had not married, she gave birth to my GF before 1948, so she would not have passed her citizenship to him.
Italian citizenship was very important to my wife and me. We are Internet entrepreneurs so we can work anywhere with an Internet connection, and we both wanted to move to Italy and leave the US behind in a few years. So I decided to not give up.

Further research lead me to a few possible solutions, the most promising of which was Luigi Paiano. We sent a few emails back and forth. I explained to him my best understanding of my lineage (I only had half of the required documents at the time), we had a Skype chat, and I was able to chat with two previous clients. This was fall of 2010. At the time he had won only 3 similar cases, and he told me there was a 90% chance of success. And the price tag would be 3200 euro plus court fees of about 500 euro. To us, the cost was a no brainier. We knew we were moving there no matter what, and having citizenship would make things so much easier. Plus, if we didn't do it, we would always wonder...

So despite the recommendations of many, I signed the contract and sent the first deposit in March of 2011 after my documents were in order. The upside of going through Luigi was that I needed much less for documents. I only needed birth and marriage certificates in the direct line, and the immigration certificate for my GGGF. From my understanding, most consulates require all death certificates, and birth certificates for brothers and sisters, aunts, uncles, etc. I didn't even need the marriage certificate of my GGGF. Additionally, there were a few errors I did not need to correct. I will upload my certificates after I get a chance to photoshop out the SSNs on the more recent ones.

My parents and wife and I visited Italy a few months later to meet up with family, and visit Luigi in Bologna. He is a very nice guy in person. He has a small office with a few other people next to a huge park. We met for about half an hour and mostly chatted about all the places we have traveled. He then explained how long the process would take, and a few other things that we already knew. We understood it would be two years, or more if the court decided to research my documents. Later that fall I received an email that my first court date would be January of 2012, and it would be a short session for the judge to review my documents. He would then set another court date 6 to 12 months later to actually make the decision.
After the court date Luigi emailed me that because he had won so many more cases (9 at this point), he was able to press the judge to agree to make the decision without a second (or third) court date. So now we were told to expect a decision sometime this July. In the meantime, Luigi won 8 or 9 more 1948 cases.

Yesterday (a day before my birthday) we received an email from Luigi with the decision from the court that they had recognized the Italian citizenship of my GGM, and thus, awarded citizenship to my family. I had to pay a few hundred euro in fees to the Italian government to file the decision with our consulate in Detroit, and to file our birth certificates in Positano. This obviously happened much, much faster than we expected. We still have to wait several more months for a date at the consulate.  But it will be nice knowing that we will not be going into the consulate to present documents on the hopes they will accept them. They will be acting on orders from the Italian government to give us our passports. As of yesterday, I am a dual U.S. and  Italian citizen. Happy Birthday!

I hope this story gives others that are in the **SPAM** I was in hope. At this point. Luigi has won 20+ cases. I cannot speak of the chances of winning obviously, as I am not an Italian avvocato. However, the chances are certainly much, much better than when I wired him several thousand euro, and he had won only 3 cases. If anyone would like to speak to me, feel free to send me an IM. I'd be happy to share more details, and answer any questions.

Here are the details of my lineage:

1. GGGF
Francesco Longobardi
B. 18-12-1848
Positano, Italia
Immigrated to U.S. 9-9-1893

2. GGM
Genevieve Longobardi
B. 26-5-1889
Jackson, MI
Married Frank Hasbrouck 3-9-1907

3. GF
Jack Hasbrouck
B. 29-4-1921
Jackson, MI
Married Rita Thorn 13-8-1947

4. Father
Nicholas Hasbrouck
B. 1-6-1958
Jackson, MI
Married June Zieger 29-3-1981

5. Me
Scott Hasbrouck
B. 11-7-1987
Jackson, MI
Married Lida Dabney 17-5-2010
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Re: I Just Beat the 1948 Rule

Postby melizza » 14 Jul 2012, 21:04

Congratulations and thank you for posting this info! Would you please explain what you mean by an "immigration certificate"? Thank you :)
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Re: I Just Beat the 1948 Rule

Postby jennabet » 15 Jul 2012, 14:46

Yes, you did beat the 1948 rule and your case, in particular, is a good example of why the 1948 rule is not likely to be overturned anytime soon or if ever meaning that one must always hire, at quite an expense, an attorney in Italy to file a lawsuit, which may or may not be won.

Since there are no Italians at all in your lineage on either side paternal or maternal from grand-father on down, I would assume you have very little, if any connection to Italy or it's culture or traditions. I think this is exactly what Italian lawmakers were trying to prevent when they instituted the 1948 rule.
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Re: I Just Beat the 1948 Rule

Postby mler » 15 Jul 2012, 15:27

I'm not sure it's a 1948 thing. The way the law is now structured, if it was a Jack Longobardi who married a Genevieve Hasbrouck and the line continued in the same path, there would have been no problem despite the fact that the applicant has a tenuous Italian connection.

On the other hand, an applicant with a 100 percent Italian connection could be disqualified. I, for example, would have been unable to qualify had my gf naturalized a few years earlier because the 1948 rule disqualified me on my maternal line, this despite the fact that all my ancestors (and my husband for that matter) are all Italian.

There are certainly inequities in the law, and I would guess that at some future date these inequities will be addressed, but for now, Italy has more pressing issues that will probably take precedence.
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Re: I Just Beat the 1948 Rule

Postby doncariddi » 15 Jul 2012, 21:09

I too just successfully challenged the 1948 rule. I take a little offense to the post above by someone saying one does not have a direct italians in ones lineage. I was raised to respect the Italian culture and have a Grandfather born in Italy (still alive today), along with a grandmother who clearly WAS an italian citizen upon birth. Additionally as a child, I also was fortunate enough to have experienced meeting my great grand parents, both born in Italy as they too immigrated to the US.

Sorry, but assuming one had no direct descendents living or dead or no existing family in Italy (yes I still have family in Italy who I have visited) is assuming a lot. The 1948 rule clearly does one thing and that puts men on a different on an unequal level than women. That simply is all that those of us effected by the 'rule' are challenging. One can have 'no' direct descendents and come from a male lineage under the current law as well.
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Re: I Just Beat the 1948 Rule

Postby jennabet » 15 Jul 2012, 21:25

Prior to 1948 in Italy, you were Italian because your father was Italian and not because your mother was Italian.

Italian women didn't have to marry foreigners, thereby diluting the the Italian bloodline because by 1912, there were millions of Italians who had already left Italy, not to mention millions of Italians numbering among the next generation born in the USA. In other words, they didn't have to join the melting pot. And in many cases those that did dilute the bloodline did so at the disapproval of their Italian parents. However, it was their choice, for which Italian women now receive rejection by Italy of their offspring born before 1948. This law was most likely enacted to prevent cases from what we see above, no Italian bloodline on either side from grand-parents on down.

My mother inherited Italian citizenship from her father. She was born in the USA. She could also have married a non-Italian but she did not. She married my father, an Italian. As a result, none of my mother's children born before 1948 have been rejected by their blood country, Italy.
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Re: I Just Beat the 1948 Rule

Postby mler » 15 Jul 2012, 21:47

Don, it is impossible to apply without a direct Italian descendent, and indeed, as I pointed out earlier, it is certainly possible to to have a strong Italian connection and still run into problems with the 1948 rule. I would have had a similar problem had my gf naturalized a few years earlier than he did. The pre-1948 law did indeed unfairly deprive women of equal rights in terms of citizenship.

I'm a bit uncomfortable speaking for jennabet, but I believe her comments were directed at the citizenship line described by the original poster whose Italian connection ended at the great grandparent level although the citizenship line remained intact as per the decision of the court.

This, however, is not an unusual situation. As the law currently reads, citizenship is based on a fortunate lineup of dates--births, naturalization, 1948, 1992, etc. Thus it's possible that an applicant with both parents born in Italy may not qualify. We also frequently see situations in which one sibling qualifies and another does not. This is based totally on dates and has very little to do with the strength of the genealogical or cultural connection.
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Re: I Just Beat the 1948 Rule

Postby jennabet » 15 Jul 2012, 21:53

Emily, let's not forget, the people who are beating the 1948 rule are also not qualified or they wouldn't have to beat anything.
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Re: I Just Beat the 1948 Rule

Postby Italia1963 » 16 Jul 2012, 00:07

I don't think we should assume that because someone is using the word "beat" in regard to the 1948 rule, that they are pulling something over the eyes of Italian officials. I think the original poster is just meaning that they feel the 1948 rule is unfair. I also don't believe that's ones love for their ancestors homeland can be diluted or that they are less Italian than someone who may have a parent who was born in Italy. There are many Italian citizens and descendants of Italians without dark hair, brown eyes or tan skin, and descendants who don't speak a word of Italian or eat pasta every Sunday, but their is a connection that drives, at least those of us asking to be recognized as Italians, to our ancestors birthplace, no matter how many generations back they may go.
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Re: I Just Beat the 1948 Rule

Postby jennabet » 16 Jul 2012, 01:05

Sorry, Italia1963, it does matter. I don't see Great Britain recognizing as British citizens descendants of the Pilgrims, do you?
Italy put rules in place for a reason.
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Re: I Just Beat the 1948 Rule

Postby doncariddi » 16 Jul 2012, 02:23

sorry Jennabet, but clearly the 1948 rule does ONLY ONE thing, and that is discriminate against a female as it is 100% clear, a male in the same situation WAS allowed to pass the bloodline. This, and ONLY this, is what we are arguing in a court case. Under the 1948 rule, my father was not an Italian citizen (he was born in June of 1947) from an Italian Citizen (my grandmother). Furthermore, she gave birth to 3 more children after 1947 who are BOTH eligible under the current Italian laws to become Italian citizens (neither actually want to pursue it). So, with that said, how can you say that the same child coming out of the same womb miraculously has a different citizenship? Exactly, the law is discriminatory, PERIOD. That, and only that, is what we are successfully bringing to court and clearly the law is on our side.

While I don't disagree that people may, or may not, actually have a clear Italian heritage, that could be said for both MALES and FEMALES. Sorry, but I'm proud to have not only won the case against the Government of Italy, but am proud of my Italian Heritage. Furthermore, I'm not less an Italian Citizen than anyone else under current Italian law. Any law the discriminates based on sex (or any other illogical reason) should be challenged in court and as is evident should be proven to be illegal.

I'm proud of my Grandmother who passed away in 2010 when I started my journey to attain my citizenship through Luigi Paiano...and I'm proud of my Grandfather who is 92 who was born in Italy (that I did not qualify under existing Italian Law to get citizenship). I'm proud of my Great grandparents who I was privileged to have known even if for a short period of my life. I'm proud that I can trace my lineage back to Italy and to current living relatives. I'm proud that I've been raised to understand fully a Sunday Italian meal, the meaning of Family and my roots.

So again, your assumption that someone is 'beating' the 1948 rule IS illogical. A male linaeage could also result in the same outcome as you are complaining about with a female. With that said, we clearly dis-agree on the entire process of 'anyone' qualifying for Italian citizenship through blood. However, there should legally be zero difference between a MALE or FEMALE in following these laws.

I don't expect you to agree or answer me, and that is fine. However, realize we are not 'beating' anything other than a discriminatory law that should not exist unless you believe in men and women not having equal rights.

In ending, I thank the courts of ROME for realizing that the laws are unjust and recognizing my legal bloodline that gives the same rights as a male or female. Viva Italia!
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Re: I Just Beat the 1948 Rule

Postby longabardi.hasbrouck » 16 Jul 2012, 14:45

jennabet, I don't think I'm the one being naive about Italy if you really think the 1948 rule is in place because of people like me who, "have very little, if any connection to Italy or it's culture or traditions."
This forum is filled with people going back as far as I did to claim citizenship, some even back to their GGGGF. Whether or not one of my ancestors, or anyone else's ancestors, was female is completely arbitrary. If Italy wanted a rule for the reasons you are describing, they would do what Ireland does and limit the lineage to GF.
Whether or not I have a connection to Italy has very little to do with whether it was my grand father, or my great grand mother who was Italian. Which, if you had read my full post, you'd see that 1. we do still have an active connection with our family, and 2. my wife and I plan on moving to Italy in the next few years. So it could be that I have an understanding of Italian culture and have spent ample time there to commit to moving to a new country and culture. Or it could be that because it happened to be my great grand mother that was the last Italian citizen, that I have no connection to Italian culture or my family there, and spent $5k and plan on moving to Italy for no reason.

I was just recognized as an Italian citizen, forgive me for using the word 'beat' to describe an unfair rule out of excitement.
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Re: I Just Beat the 1948 Rule

Postby melizza » 16 Jul 2012, 17:28

It is possible to obtain British citizenship, for instance, by moving to England and spending £200,000 in establishing a business there. One is eligible for citizenship after 5 years. The US has a similar program, although it's more demanding of the entrepreneur. Most other countries have a similar means of buying one's way in.

It is possible for the husband or wife of an Italian citizen to obtain Italian citizenship after a few years. The spouse may have zero percent "Italian blood." The Italian citizen may never have set foot in Italy. Descendents born from women before 1948, on the other hand, may have full Italian blood, or some or little, but are not eligible.

Whatever reasons the Italian government has for setting its rules as it does, the government has the absolute say. Remember that the same government that is denying 1948 cases in consulates is now granting it in the courts. It may welcome the revenue from such cases or maybe lawyers have an agreement with judges so that they can continue to profit from such cases, or there may be many other reasons why they are granting citizenship in the 1948 cases. That's how it is.

Maybe jennabet's Facebook friends or personal blog readers would be interested in her ideas of what is fair and not fair in light of Italian citizenship law. But if you have even the slightest awareness of citizenship law the world over, you will probably find something objectionable about it from your personal perspective. The point is that if it is possible to avail yourself of a particular citizenship that you would find valuable, and you have the means to obtain it, then you will do so, regardless of anyone else's emotions about what you should do.

I'm going to try to beat the 1948 rule, and I'm here to get advice about doing so. I won't bore anyone with my personal emotional connection to Italy, nor should anyone else feel that they need to prove their personal emotional connection to Italy to anyone else here. This is not the place for it.
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Re: I Just Beat the 1948 Rule

Postby rjnigro » 16 Jul 2012, 18:07

Please don't lose sight that an Italian Court has agreed with the petitioner!
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Re: I Just Beat the 1948 Rule

Postby kontessa » 17 Jul 2012, 09:06

melizza wrote:It is possible to obtain British citizenship, for instance, by moving to England and spending £200,000 in establishing a business there. One is eligible for citizenship after 5 years. The US has a similar program, although it's more demanding of the entrepreneur. Most other countries have a similar means of buying one's way in.

It is possible for the husband or wife of an Italian citizen to obtain Italian citizenship after a few years. The spouse may have zero percent "Italian blood." The Italian citizen may never have set foot in Italy. Descendents born from women before 1948, on the other hand, may have full Italian blood, or some or little, but are not eligible.

Whatever reasons the Italian government has for setting its rules as it does, the government has the absolute say. Remember that the same government that is denying 1948 cases in consulates is now granting it in the courts. It may welcome the revenue from such cases or maybe lawyers have an agreement with judges so that they can continue to profit from such cases, or there may be many other reasons why they are granting citizenship in the 1948 cases. That's how it is.

Maybe jennabet's Facebook friends or personal blog readers would be interested in her ideas of what is fair and not fair in light of Italian citizenship law. But if you have even the slightest awareness of citizenship law the world over, you will probably find something objectionable about it from your personal perspective. The point is that if it is possible to avail yourself of a particular citizenship that you would find valuable, and you have the means to obtain it, then you will do so, regardless of anyone else's emotions about what you should do.



I'm going to try to beat the 1948 rule, and I'm here to get advice about doing so. I won't bore anyone with my personal emotional connection to Italy, nor should anyone else feel that they need to prove their personal emotional connection to Italy to anyone else here. This is not the place for it.


Brava.
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