I Just Beat the 1948 Rule

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
tuper16
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Re: I Just Beat the 1948 Rule

Postby tuper16 » 25 Apr 2014, 16:31

DRuss wrote:In any case, the rules were not created for xenophobic reasons as Jennabet would have you believe. They were simply inherited from another state well before women's suffrage.


I agree. The new constitutional interpretation is anchored in the principle of gender equality and non-discrimination, incorporated in Arts. 3(1) and 29(2) of the new Republican Italian Constitution of 1948. The latter was also the year of the adoption of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights by United Nation. Before this instrument, those principles were not clearly formulated, neither in International Law nor at the Constitutional level. And, of course, the previous Italian Constitution (Statuto Albertino) was not an exception.

jennabet
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Re: I Just Beat the 1948 Rule

Postby jennabet » 25 Apr 2014, 16:34

Well before women's suffrage? Is that why some politicians today instruct women at political rallies in Italy to stay home and cook for the candidates running for office? Not everyone in Italy and probably most of the men would agree that the rules only pertain to times dating back to women's suffrage. My mother's parents were born in Italy. My mother was born in the USA. She married my father also born in the USA but who's parents were also born in Italy. My mother, being an American, COULD have also married a non-Italian but she chose to continue the unbroken Italian blood line. Fortunately, as a result, none of my mother's children have to worry about not being considered Italian jures sanguines.

DRuss
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Re: I Just Beat the 1948 Rule

Postby DRuss » 25 Apr 2014, 17:11

jennabet wrote:Well before women's suffrage? Is that why some politicians today instruct women at political rallies in Italy to stay home and cook for the candidates running for office? Not everyone in Italy and probably most of the men would agree that the rules only pertain to times dating back to women's suffrage. My mother's parents were born in Italy. My mother was born in the USA. She married my father also born in the USA but who's parents were also born in Italy. My mother, being an American, COULD have also married a non-Italian but she chose to continue the unbroken Italian blood line. Fortunately, as a result, none of my mother's children have to worry about not being considered Italian jures sanguines.

Fortunately, multiple levels of the Italian court system disagree with your views. Your 'pure' blood would not give you any right to citizenship if your parents had sworn allegiance to another country before you were born. I also find the concept of "pure" blood quite preposterous, given the number of invasions and annexations the territory now called "Italy" has experienced. The law makes no distinction based on the 'purity' of one's blood.

The very fact that you are a citizen in your own right is due to women's suffrage - before 1948, women were essentially subordinate to their father or husband and didn't hold citizenship in their own right. Women's suffrage also gives you the right to transmit Italian citizenship to your children even if their father was/is not an Italian citizen.

jennabet
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Re: I Just Beat the 1948 Rule

Postby jennabet » 25 Apr 2014, 17:36

DRuss wrote:
jennabet wrote:Well before women's suffrage? Is that why some politicians today instruct women at political rallies in Italy to stay home and cook for the candidates running for office? Not everyone in Italy and probably most of the men would agree that the rules only pertain to times dating back to women's suffrage. My mother's parents were born in Italy. My mother was born in the USA. She married my father also born in the USA but who's parents were also born in Italy. My mother, being an American, COULD have also married a non-Italian but she chose to continue the unbroken Italian blood line. Fortunately, as a result, none of my mother's children have to worry about not being considered Italian jures sanguines.

Fortunately, multiple levels of the Italian court system disagree with your views. Your 'pure' blood would not give you any right to citizenship if your parents had sworn allegiance to another country before you were born. I also find the concept of "pure" blood quite preposterous, given the number of invasions and annexations the territory now called "Italy" has experienced. The law makes no distinction based on the 'purity' of one's blood.

The very fact that you are a citizen in your own right is due to women's suffrage - before 1948, women were essentially subordinate to their father or husband and didn't hold citizenship in their own right. Women's suffrage also gives you the right to transmit Italian citizenship to your children even if their father was/is not an Italian citizen.


How do you conclude the 1948 rule applies to me? My mother (an Italian) married an Italian man and I applied through my father's lineage.

And, like myself, the majority of Italians in Italy today, as well as many others dispersed around the world, with the pure blood that you find preposterous will also likely never have this kind of problem.

And most immigrants today who have any sort of pride of place and love of heritage and culture will not swear allegiance to another country if it means having to forfeit country of origin.

jennabet
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Re: I Just Beat the 1948 Rule

Postby jennabet » 25 Apr 2014, 17:51

jennabet wrote:
DRuss wrote:
jennabet wrote:You're not an Italian doctor and you obviously don't know how the health system operates in Italy.
I have been using this system for 14 years.


Thank you for the clarification. I'll assume that in those 14 years, you've never been in the Doctor's seat. If someone asked about your family history, it was likely because they noticed you had an Italian-sounding name and that your place of birth (as per your fiscal code) is not in Italy.

Also, I find your suggestion that doctors would provide substandard treatment to a patient because of their origins or citizenship quite disgusting, to be honest. As I wrote in my first post - you demonstrate a lot of unwarranted bitterness which I find very unbefitting of Italians.


I find it quite the opposite. Since genetics if the reason for everything, doctors in Italy can only provide the best care if they know your heritage. Unlike in the USA, thankfully, here in Italy we are not all lumped together as Americans, therefore we get the best care, with Italy coming in second next to Japan in health and wellness according to the Social Progress Index 2014.


I thought this was worth repeating because I forgot to mention that while Japan scored first and Italy second in Health and Wellness on the Social Progress Index 2014, the United States was way down on the list in 70th place near Kuwait 71 and Saudi Arabia 72. Is this perhaps because the USA is not allowed to record citizenship in order that it can spend tax payer dollars on illegal immigrant health care instead? Any wonder Americans have such a poor level of health and wellness.

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Re: I Just Beat the 1948 Rule

Postby DRuss » 25 Apr 2014, 17:57

jennabet wrote:Is this perhaps because the USA is not allowed to record citizenship in order that it can spend tax payer dollars on illegal immigrant health care instead? Any wonder Americans have such a poor level of health and wellness.

No, it's because the US doesn't have universal healthcare, ergo many are not covered.

I'm not going to respond to your drivel any longer. I only wanted to discredit your ill-informed, xenophobic posts, which I have already done. The answers to your previous post can be found in the post which you replied to - all you need is some comprehension and logic.

jennabet
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Re: I Just Beat the 1948 Rule

Postby jennabet » 25 Apr 2014, 18:24

I have plenty of comprehension and logic and I also have first hand knowledge of life in Italy, having been here as an Italian citizen for 14 years. You on the other hand, have proved nothing with regard to whether or not doctors in the healthcare system in Italy have access to citizenship data. I'm also rather annoyed at your repeated use of the word "xenophobic" in regard to my posts.

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Re: I Just Beat the 1948 Rule

Postby DRuss » 25 Apr 2014, 20:47

jennabet wrote:I'm also rather annoyed at your repeated use of the word "xenophobic" in regard to my posts.

What do you expect when you keep talking about "pure" blood? That terminology is usually reserved for breeds of animals and... Mein Kampf.

I've provided more than enough information, including screenshots, for others to determine that you're a fool.

Have a nice day...

dojo
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Re: I Just Beat the 1948 Rule

Postby dojo » 26 Apr 2014, 15:03

I am about to start a 1948 case with Luigi Paiano. From my contact with him so far, he seems very professional and knowledgeable. I just had a couple quick questions for the people who have used his services before…
How long did it take for your case to receive a successful decision?
How long after a successful decision did it take for your birth to be registered, and for you to receive your birth certificate?
Has anyone applied directly for a passport in Italy? If not, do you believe it would be faster to apply in Italy or through the consulate?

Thanks for any responses, I will try my best to document my journey through these forums as well.

DRuss
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Re: I Just Beat the 1948 Rule

Postby DRuss » 26 Apr 2014, 16:18

Luigi already provided me some of the answers, which I'll repeat below for you:

dojo wrote:How long did it take for your case to receive a successful decision?

This is the most variable part of the process. It can take anywhere from 4-5 months to 2 years. If you have good luck and get judges who have experience with these cases and who are not too busy, it will take 4-5 months. Unfortunately, it's impossible for Luigi or anyone else to say how long it will take because it's purely down to luck. He did say, however, that the average time is becoming shorter and shorter as more cases progress and the judges become familiar with the argument.

dojo wrote:How long after a successful decision did it take for your birth to be registered, and for you to receive your birth certificate?

Luigi told me that I can expect the birth certificate in my hands six months after the last court appearance (when the judge informs that he will start writing the decision).

dojo wrote:Has anyone applied directly for a passport in Italy? If not, do you believe it would be faster to apply in Italy or through the consulate?

If you want to live in Italy or the EU as soon as possible, you can take your birth certificate to the town where your birth is recorded (where your ancestors were born/married) and ask for a Carta d'identità (identity card), which is valid all over Europe. You will need 4 passport photos and some ID from your home country. Better if you can take 2-3 different ID documents (eg. passport, drivers license with international translation, ID card if you have one). They usually produce identity cards in a few minutes while you wait.

To apply for a passport in Italy, you will first have to register with the town hall of whichever town/city you wish to live in (using your identity card). Once the Police confirm your address, your registration will be approved and you can then apply for a passport. It can take a couple of months.

To apply for an Italian passport in another EU country, you will first have to register as a resident in that country using your Carta d'identità. Once that country issues you with residence papers, you can register in the Italian Consulate and they will issue you a passport. This also takes at least a few months.

So, it's quicker to apply for the passport wherever you're living now. However, if you want to live in Italy or another EU country, you can do so as soon as you have your birth certificate.

Also if you are planning on living in Italy, I recommend that you ask your local consulate to order your fiscal code (Codice fiscale) as soon as possible. You'll receive a card in the mail which contains your name, birthdate and a few other details from your passport. It doesn't change when you become an Italian citizen, so you can order it now. You will often need that card in Italy.

Note that if you have changed your name, you will need to use your birth name when requesting your codice fiscale and on all other documents in Italy - they will not recognise married or other name changes.


The application form for the codice fiscale can be filled out here: https://secure.jotformpro.com/form/40504918647964

Other forms you can find in English/Italian here, so you can prepare in advance: http://www.conslondra.esteri.it/Consola ... odifyGuest

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Re: I Just Beat the 1948 Rule

Postby jennabet » 26 Apr 2014, 17:49

[quote="DRuss. I also find the concept of "pure" blood quite preposterous, given the number of invasions and annexations the territory now called "Italy" has experienced. The law makes no distinction based on the 'purity' of one's blood.

[/quote]

I'm sorry that you seem to find "pure" Italian blood quite preposterous but unlike yourself, I cannot go back seven or eight generations let alone one generation and find any ancestor at all that does not have an Italian name. My family has lived in this region, which is older than Rome, for at least 1,000 years, my great grand-mother's name being Di Claudio (from Claudius). I maintain that if you show your disdain for the manner in which Italians in Italy embrace their family heritage and culture, you won't do well in this country, as an Italian citizen or not. The very fact that you think you're entitled to Italian citizenship while maintaining that pure Italian blood is preposterous is what is really preposterous.

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Re: I Just Beat the 1948 Rule

Postby DRuss » 26 Apr 2014, 18:27

jennabet wrote:I'm sorry that you seem to find "pure" Italian blood quite preposterous but unlike yourself, I cannot go back seven or eight generations let alone one generation and find any ancestor at all that does not have an Italian name. My family has lived in this region, which is older than Rome, for at least 1,000 years, my great grand-mother's name being Di Claudio (from Claudius). I maintain that if you show your disdain for the manner in which Italians in Italy embrace their family heritage and culture, you won't do well in this country, as an Italian citizen or not. The very fact that you think you're entitled to Italian citizenship while maintaining that pure Italian blood is preposterous is what is really preposterous.

Thanks, but I'm not going to enter another one of your irrational arguments. This thread is already far off topic. Enjoy your pure blood. You should think about proclaiming yourself the Empress of Rome or something along those lines. Of course, there would be no legal basis for it, but you can believe it if you wish.

Despite my 'impure' blood, in the eyes of the law you are no more of an Italian citizen than I. Punto.

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Re: I Just Beat the 1948 Rule

Postby jennabet » 26 Apr 2014, 18:41

DRuss wrote:What do you expect when you keep talking about "pure" blood? That terminology is usually reserved for breeds of animals and... Mein Kampf.



Your words. For all Italian contributors of this forum to see.

dojo
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Re: I Just Beat the 1948 Rule

Postby dojo » 27 Apr 2014, 01:18

Thank you DRuss for your quick reply… Information was very helpful.

ignacio
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Re: I Just Beat the 1948 Rule

Postby ignacio » 11 Aug 2014, 00:43

Just want to share my experience working with Luigi Paiano. I am Italian from my mother’s side, my great grandfather emigrated from Piedmont to Argentina in late XIX century, gave birth to my grandmother who then gave birth to my mother. It was surprising for us to learn that even though my great grandfather was given the Commendatore order by the Italian Embassy and that my grandmother’s brothers were all Italian citizens, my mother and her sons could not apply for citizenship via the consulate. We could have applied for other European citizenships like that of Spain, Malta or Ireland but we had a preference for Italy.

As we are all fluent in Italian in my family and have a number of Italian friends it was quite easy to reach to several lawyers in Italy; some of them quite large firms in Milano and other large cities. However, at the time very few had handled this sort of cases, even though many were bragging about their experience. When I got to talk to Luigi Paiano I liked his honesty when he said he had only filed one case and won it. I sent all of our documents in late 2009 and Luigi filed in early 2010. I received an answer by mid 2012. After that there was a six month wait for all the registration process in our comuna in Piedmont. When my brother, my mother and I each went to the consulate to obtain our passports the staff were very happy to finally process our applications.

I totally recommend the services of Luigi Paiano, he is very professional, knowledgeable and responsive.


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