Comunes Setting Rules for Citizenship Apps

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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Comunes Setting Rules for Citizenship Apps

Postby jennabet » 03 Sep 2012, 13:07

I just read in my local regional newspaper that some Comunes in Italy are setting new residency rules for citizenship applicants with Agropoli, Campania in particular requiring that applicants hold official residency for a minimum of one year before documents can be accepted.

This, in my opinion, is a good austerity measure as it costs time, money and resources for a local comune to provide administrative services to people who may not be interested in living in Italy and contributing to the economy but whose goal is merely to have their documents processed as soon as possible instead of waiting years for an appointment with a consulate. Also the fees generated to obtain the Visa required for residency will help the economic situation in Italy. Hopefully all comunes will begin following suit as soon as possible.
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Re: Comunes Setting Rules for Citizenship Apps

Postby droe » 03 Sep 2012, 18:51

Is there a link to an on-line copy of the article?

I am interested in seeing exactily what they are effecting and then if there has been a change in any directives that allows the change.

If this also covers being recognized by JS then that would be somewhat a change or is it those seeking to reclaim citizenship?

Thanks
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Re: Comunes Setting Rules for Citizenship Apps

Postby Italysearcher » 03 Sep 2012, 22:54

I quite agree. If a person is pursuing dual citizenship just because they qualify and they never intend to live or work in Europe, why bother. It is expensive and time consuming for these overworked town offices to record all the documents necessary to register people for dual citizenship.
I understand they want to honour their ancestors but their ancestors left, and mostly never returned. Italy gave them poverty and hopelessness and they came to America and never even taught their children the language. Honour instead the life they gave you with the sacrifices they made.
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Re: Comunes Setting Rules for Citizenship Apps

Postby droe » 03 Sep 2012, 23:46

Why bother to have your citizenship recognized is personal choice. Yes many do so just to say they have dual citizenship.

Yes many Italians came to America for the opportunity to have a better life. Not unlike someone who moves from say Canada to Italy to have a life style and a quality of life they desire. The differences from the 1800's early 1900's do not compare to today.

Yes the language has not continued to pass to the children due to the fact at the time you needed to learn the language of your new home to survive and work. They accepted the terms of their new home so that they could improve thier lives.

Many of those in the firt generation did learn the language but times continue to evolve and now spanish is the second language to know if you want to continue to grow.

Many use the ability to obtain dual status to be able to take advantage of the EU and the ability to work and live in the member states. Other do so as they actually plan on living in Italy.

Thinking that any civil officer is over worked recording into the registry dual citizenship paperwork is over stating the task. Many comunes once the registration is complete have little or no administrative cost other than the election process if they even bother to send out voting materials when required.

If it was such a burden the Italian government could easily end the process but yet has made it easier for those to become dual citizens and for those to reclaim lost citizenship.

If one thinks forcing someone to move and establish residency for a year as a way to grow revenues and solve some of the budget problems does not understand the working of the government.

Seems it is always easier to find someone else to blame the budget on and no one really wants to accept the fact it all comes down to those that elect the folks who have interest to spend so they can stay in office. A tough cycle to break when fiscal responsibility is the necessary end result.
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Re: Comunes Setting Rules for Citizenship Apps

Postby Italysearcher » 04 Sep 2012, 09:02

As a British born Canadian who already had dual citizenship I moved from Canada to Italy with my Italian husband I didn't need to do anything extra. I would have moved back to the UK but my husband can't stand the weather!
Getting dual citizenship in order to come here and live or work is fine but I ead one post where the person just wanted an Italian passport to travel with. He didn't ealize that he would have to buy a VISA to enter the US with an Italian passport!
The paperwork is horrendous for the Comune if there is more than one generation involved. Read my book if you want to learn more about how Italian government offices function.
Last week , after living here for 10 years without problems the health service decided not to renew my 'libretto' of the health care because I have no income generated here and do not file a tax form. It was August and most offices were closed or on minimum staff and wouln't deal with my problem. Come back in September. I went to FIVE 'padronato' (like a citizen's advice bureau) before I found one open (after September 1st of course) and they had never heard of this issue. We made NINE visits to various offices before this was resolved, and it was, with no explanation.
It is not true that the town has little to do after it is all finished. The same office looks after the electoral rolls, the census (conducted on a local level at will) the registration of citizens, identity cards and there renewal (now for infants too) as well as bbirths, marriages and deaths. Requests for copies of records and research from overseas (often written in English).
As for voting in perople with interest, you need to understand the voting process. A citizen votes for the party (not the person) and the party decides who will take the seat once the election is won. It may not be the same person who campaigned!
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Re: Comunes Setting Rules for Citizenship Apps

Postby jennabet » 04 Sep 2012, 10:41

.....If it was such a burden the Italian government could easily end the process but yet has made it easier for those to become dual citizens and for those to reclaim lost citizenship.....

Ending the process is totally unnecessary as consulates are in place all over the world to accommodate citizenship requests from applicants who don't live in Italy. But why should resident Italian citizens and taxpayers be expected to receive less timely services or fewer services from their comunes, especially during a time when austerity measures are in place, while comune workers are busy handling matters for non residents?

When the shoe is on the other foot, the Social Security Office in the USA won't even talk on the phone to an American citizen living abroad and instead refers him to the US Consulate in his country of residence.
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Re: Comunes Setting Rules for Citizenship Apps

Postby jennabet » 04 Sep 2012, 11:08

....Last week , after living here for 10 years without problems the health service decided not to renew my 'libretto' of the health care because I have no income generated here and do not file a tax form. It was August and most offices were closed or on minimum staff and wouln't deal with my problem. Come back in September. I went to FIVE 'padronato' (like a citizen's advice bureau) before I found one open (after September 1st of course) and they had never heard of this issue. We made NINE visits to various offices before this was resolved, and it was, with no explanation.....

Of course this happened to you because you're not an Italian citizen but it's a prime example of how services (in your case trying to get if fixed) for all residents have been impacted since austerity measures have been put in place and I just don't see how non-residents should expect services of any kind.

....As for voting in perople with interest, you need to understand the voting process. A citizen votes for the party (not the person) and the party decides who will take the seat once the election is won. It may not be the same person who campaigned!....

And I agree thoroughly that non-residents do not understand the voting process as the parliamentary system is completely different from the two-party system that exists in the USA.
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Re: Comunes Setting Rules for Citizenship Apps

Postby Squigy » 04 Sep 2012, 12:04

Jennabet,

Am I to understand that this is only for those applying for citizenship *in* Italy, and that those applying at Consulates outside Italy don't need to meet the residency requirement? Or does this mean all citizenship applicants will need to meet the residency requirement before their documents are registered?

Italysearcher,

I disagree; many left Italy out of desperation, but few had an interest in losing their Italian *identity* - in many ways, they brought Italy *with* them to the United States, settling in largely Italian areas, and retaining many aspects of their culture to pass onto future generations (and in the process of doing so, created a new, unique, Italian-AMERICAN culture).

I think dual citizenship is a perfect way of, not only recognizing our heritage, but ensuring our culture is passed on to future generations, instead of being absorbed by the mainstream, as so many have in the past (Irish-Ameircans, for instance).

P.S.

Most children of immigrants *did* speak their parents' native dialects, by the way - this is because a good deal of immigrants didn't really have any desire to assimilate into Anglo-American culture, nor did a good many have any *need* (since the areas they emigrated to were usually "Little Italy's").
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Re: Comunes Setting Rules for Citizenship Apps

Postby droe » 04 Sep 2012, 12:38

How about a couple of points to clear up some issues:



Quote:
Getting dual citizenship in order to come here and live or work is fine but I ead one post where the person just wanted an Italian passport to travel with. He didn't ealize that he would have to buy a VISA to enter the US with an Italian passport!
------
Correct. However an American with dual status should only be entering the US on his US passport. The Visa fee has been imposed by that out of control government agancy called the TSA on foreign nationals. They call it a security feature, most see it as a revenue enhancer. Why members of the EU allowed the US to enact this on their citizens is beyond most while they do not do the same to US citizens traveling to their countries.



Quote:
Ending the process is totally unnecessary as consulates are in place all over the world to accommodate citizenship requests from applicants who don't live in Italy.
-------
Ok that is nice to hear but the consulates in the US once they complete the process of recognizing citizenship wash their hands of the process and then move over any responsibility to the Comune. You might get them to send an email if there is a problem or concern but they will inform the new citizen it is now at the Comune deal with them.



Quote:
When the shoe is on the other foot, the Social Security Office in the USA won't even talk on the phone to an American citizen living abroad and instead refers him to the US Consulate in his country of residence.
--------
Living in the US makes it no easier talking to Social Security. Now when you call in they will direct you to the web to conduct business if possible. There is a good reason why there are some many lawyers that make a living off Social Security they are not fun to deal with if you have a problem.


Want a real headache try dealing with the US IRS. :)



No matter what country you want to debate dealing with any government agency can be a walk through a mine field. The problem facing everyone today is the amount of debt that has been put on the books and now it is time to pay the piper. Cutbacks are not fun no matter where you live and in most cases the cuts effect those the programs help the most.

It is not a matter of non residents vs residents. If one is a citizen of a country they should have the same rights and services no matter where they live. Granted the level of services will be governed by residency that is not a problem. However they should not be seen as second class and a burden due to the fact they need documents or are doing nothing more than following the system as a person living abroad.

Working with the consulate system here in the US is most of the time difficult even as a citizen.

As a registered US agent for an Italian Company I know all to well how difficult working with things can be. Spending 30-60 days a year in Rome I actually look forward to that time as I can really get more done there than in the US. At least I am dealing with one government and not 50 separate states and a federal system.

To be honest the number of people traveling to Italy to obtain their citizenship via ancerstry has gone up over the past few years is due to the Consulate system. Some take 24 months to get an appointment. Then there is the differences in how each consulate officer and consulate handles the actual law as pertaining to the recognization process. Often they will have applicants go back an additional generation to insure there is no broken line in the family.

As to the Comunes and the problem of language. It is simple in my book, Italian is the official langauge.

If request are received in English they should be returned with nothing more than a statement that unless request are in Italian they will not be read. If you want to be part of the system then at least work to fit in.

Despite all the insanity of the Italian system I am looking forward to retiring to Italy in two years and you want to talk about crazy I am seriously looking at my ancestral comume of Aliano as the place I just might call home. (The other half is not yet convinced as she is still pushing for Rome).
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Re: Comunes Setting Rules for Citizenship Apps

Postby jennabet » 04 Sep 2012, 12:48

[quote="Squigy"]Jennabet,

Am I to understand that this is only for those applying for citizenship *in* Italy, and that those applying at Consulates outside Italy don't need to meet the residency requirement?

Squigy, if you're applying at a consulate, you have already met the residency requirement if you live in the consulate's jurisdiction. And now, the same is happening in Italy. If you want to apply in a certain comune you have to have been a resident there for at least one year.
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Re: Comunes Setting Rules for Citizenship Apps

Postby jennabet » 04 Sep 2012, 13:09

Squigy said .......Italysearcher, I disagree; many left Italy out of desperation, but few had an interest in losing their Italian *identity* - in many ways, they brought Italy *with* them to the United States, settling in largely Italian areas, and retaining many aspects of their culture to pass onto future generations (and in the process of doing so, created a new, unique, Italian-AMERICAN culture).

I think dual citizenship is a perfect way of, not only recognizing our heritage, but ensuring our culture is passed on to future generations, instead of being absorbed by the mainstream, as so many have in the past (Irish-Ameircans, for instance).

P.S.

Most children of immigrants *did* speak their parents' native dialects, by the way - this is because a good deal of immigrants didn't really have any desire to assimilate into Anglo-American culture, nor did a good many have any *need* (since the areas they emigrated to were usually "Little Italy's").......

I can agree with all of this. On my mother's side alone, there were nine siblings, one born in Italy, the rest born in the Wilmington, DE Italian enclave where their parents immigrated in order to live among others like themselves. ALL nine siblings married Italian-Americans, most from their own region and province in Italy. That's how uninterested they were in assimilation or diluting their bloodlines in the melting pot. It would be unnatural for their descendants NOT to be interested in dual citizenship.
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Re: Comunes Setting Rules for Citizenship Apps

Postby jennabet » 04 Sep 2012, 14:37

.....Correct. However an American with dual status should only be entering the US on his US passport. The Visa fee has been imposed by that out of control government agancy called the TSA on foreign nationals. They call it a security feature, most see it as a revenue enhancer. Why members of the EU allowed the US to enact this on their citizens is beyond most while they do not do the same to US citizens traveling to their countries.....

No visa necessary as long as Italians have a Biometric passport, which became mandatory in 2010.

......Ok that is nice to hear but the consulates in the US once they complete the process of recognizing citizenship wash their hands of the process and then move over any responsibility to the Comune. You might get them to send an email if there is a problem or concern but they will inform the new citizen it is now at the Comune deal with them.....

After recognition, consulate should process your passport. You should have no reason to communicate personally with your comune. I don't understand this "Italian Birth Certificate" thing. I was recognized 11 years ago by Philadelphia and have lived in Italy mostly ever since. I have every Italian doc. necessary but I do not have an Italian birth certificate and the subject has never come up all the years I've been here.

......Living in the US makes it no easier talking to Social Security. Now when you call in they will direct you to the web to conduct business if possible. There is a good reason why there are some many lawyers that make a living off Social Security they are not fun to deal with if you have a problem......

Too many lawyers operating in the USA in any capacity is a big problem, in my opinion.

.....It is not a matter of non residents vs residents. If one is a citizen of a country they should have the same rights and services no matter where they live. Granted the level of services will be governed by residency that is not a problem. However they should not be seen as second class and a burden due to the fact they need documents or are doing nothing more than following the system as a person living abroad.....

A JS candidate living outside of Italy is not an Italian citizen until recognition and is not an Italian resident. Therefore a Comune doesn't have to provide any services at all. That's why you have a consulate.

.....Working with the consulate system here in the US is most of the time difficult even as a citizen.....

How do you know if you're not an Italian citizen. I recently returned to US and lived there for two years, during which time I registered with the San Francisco consulate. I gave them my Italian passport and carta d'Identita and had no problem whatsoever dealing with them. They even made a personal call to me at home to confirm my address. After that I was always put through immediately to the appropriate person if I needed anything else.

......To be honest the number of people traveling to Italy to obtain their citizenship via ancerstry has gone up over the past few years is due to the Consulate system. Some take 24 months to get an appointment. Then there is the differences in how each consulate officer and consulate handles the actual law as pertaining to the recognization process. Often they will have applicants go back an additional generation to insure there is no broken line in the family.....

The first priorty of the consulate is to provide services to Italian citizens living abroad in it's jurisdiction. The first priority of the Comune is to provide services to people maintaining legal residence and paying taxes in it's municipality.

You can move over to your comune and apply for citizenship after you have lived there and paid taxes for one year. If not, you can wait for an appointment at your consulate and follow their rules. I don't see any other options.
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Re: Comunes Setting Rules for Citizenship Apps

Postby kontessa » 04 Sep 2012, 15:41

If it's not too much trouble, I would also like to see the name of the newspaper that printed the article that you noted in your first post, jennabet. Thanks. Or maybe a link to the actual article or circolare that deals with any regulation.

Is this the reason for your mentioning Agropoli?:
http://www.expatsinitaly.com/node/16676 ... ent-155526
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Re: Comunes Setting Rules for Citizenship Apps

Postby kontessa » 04 Sep 2012, 15:43

jennabet wrote: Also the fees generated to obtain the Visa required for residency will help the economic situation in Italy.


No visa required for those moving to Italy in order to apply for citizenship, jure sanguinis.
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Re: Comunes Setting Rules for Citizenship Apps

Postby droe » 04 Sep 2012, 15:44

Jennabet -

With that in mind I will make a couple of points: and then sit back and just come to the conclusion that your views are yours and leave it at that.



QUOTE:
No visa necessary as long as Italians have a Biometric passport, which became mandatory in 2010.
-----------------------

The Visa Waiver Program (VWP) is administered by DHS and enables eligible citizens or nationals of designated countries to travel to the United States for tourism or business for stays of 90 days or less without first obtaining a visa

Beginning September 8, 2010, there is a fee required by the Travel Promotion Act of 2009 (Section 9 of the United States Capitol Police Administrative Technical Corrections Act of 2009, Pub. L. No. 111-145). The fee is comprised of two parts:

Processing Charge -- All applicants requesting an electronic travel authorization are charged for the processing of the application. The fee is $4.00.
Authorization charge -- If your application is approved and you receive authorization to travel to the United States under the Visa Waiver Program, an additional $10.00 will be charged to your credit card. If your electronic travel authorization is denied, you are only charged for the processing of your application.


Italy is part of the VWP and the cost is $14.00 While you do not need a visa for up to a 90 day stay you have to do the ESTA or Electronic System for Travel Authorization to board.




QUOTE:
After recognition, consulate should process your passport. You should have no reason to communicate personally with your comune. I don't understand this "Italian Birth Certificate" thing.
-----------------

Right now there are several US Consulates that will not issue a passport to one recognized via JS until they are in possession of their Italian Passport. Some Consulates will register the person in A.I.R.E at the time of recognizaiton and other will send an application and expect it to be completed and returned to be registered.


QUOTE:
A JS candidate living outside of Italy is not an Italian citizen until recognition and is not an Italian resident. Therefore a Comune doesn't have to provide any services at all. That's why you have a consulate.
------------------

I guess if one wishes to become a citizen and needs to fulfill the requirements then you need to figure out how to acquire and provide the necessary documents under your statement. Saying the Comune does not have to provide any services to non residents is a little insane. They hold the legal documents required to be recognized and if we follow your thinking you would not have gotten through the process as they did not have to provide proof of your right to be recognized. Eleven years ago you did not have residency and were not paying taxes were you?


QUOTE:
How do you know if you're not an Italian citizen.
-------------------

Again if you paid attention you would have picked up I am! I have dual status as do you.


QUOTE:
The first priorty of the consulate is to provide services to Italian citizens living abroad in it's jurisdiction. The first priority of the Comune is to provide services to people maintaining legal residence and paying taxes in it's municipality
-----------------

The purpose of both the Consulates and the Comunes is to provide services to its citizens. Where one pays taxes does not release the Coumne from not providing services. So if you move from Rome to Milan and need documents from Rome since you no longer pay taxes in that comune I guess you are just out of luck.


QUOTE:
You can move over to your comune and apply for citizenship after you have lived there and paid taxes for one year. If not, you can wait for an appointment at your consulate and follow their rules. I don't see any other options.
-----------------
Spoken like an true American :)

The options are clear and spelled out in several directives. Don't like the process then effect change but watch what you wish for.




With that I shall sit back and just come to the conclusion that your views are yours and leave it at that.
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