Impossible to find birth certificate in Argentina

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Impossible to find birth certificate in Argentina

Postby Granadaiscool » 07 Sep 2012, 19:34

Hey, hopefully somebody can help me with my following problem.

I have been looking for the birth certificate of my grandfather who was born in Capital Federal. I do have his marriage certificate and death certificate but at the Registro civil they can't find his birth certificate

This is are the searches I have done

1: Registro civil. Many different searches on different names and dates = No result
2: Military duty(Colimba) - No record and he got send away as unfit due to bad teeth
3: Church - I did find the marriage certificate that says where the bautism took place but that church does have no records.

I have been told by the consulate that as long the orignal birth certificate doesn't show up there is no chance to get the Italian citizenship. They also told me that if there is a intervention by the judge they won't accept that document. It must be the orignal certificate

Has anybody been going to a similar situation? How did you solve it?
Is there any other way to find the birth certificate?
Is it true the Italian state won't accept the birth certificate if it's not the orignal one?
Does anybody have an agency who could help me in this case?
Is there a chance the ministry of education has any information on my GF? I do have most of his documents that he was enlisted into state schools

Any help would be really really helpfull

Pablo.
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Re: Impossible to find birth certificate in Argentina

Postby jennabet » 08 Sep 2012, 00:23

.....I have been told by the consulate that as long the orignal birth certificate doesn't show up there is no chance to get the Italian citizenship. They also told me that if there is a intervention by the judge they won't accept that document. It must be the orignal certificate......

Of course you have as it only makes sense. But I'm sorry you have apparently come across incorrect information in these forums from people (mostly using the New York Consulate) who have similar problems and have spread rumors that the consulates will accept birth certificates that have been created for a deceased person. However, when the consulate says to "find the birth certificate", it does not mean create a new one.
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Re: Impossible to find birth certificate in Argentina

Postby lcannuli » 08 Sep 2012, 04:33

Have you tried LDS?
https://familysearch.org/search/collect ... TH_AMERICA

If you can get a copy of the birth through them you can send it to the registry clerk and have a better leg to stand on.
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Re: Impossible to find birth certificate in Argentina

Postby Granadaiscool » 08 Sep 2012, 15:45

jennabet wrote:.....I have been told by the consulate that as long the orignal birth certificate doesn't show up there is no chance to get the Italian citizenship. They also told me that if there is a intervention by the judge they won't accept that document. It must be the orignal certificate......

Of course you have as it only makes sense. But I'm sorry you have apparently come across incorrect information in these forums from people (mostly using the New York Consulate) who have similar problems and have spread rumors that the consulates will accept birth certificates that have been created for a deceased person. However, when the consulate says to "find the birth certificate", it does not mean create a new one.


I am sorry but it would not be 'create a new one' just asking the Argentine state(by intervention of a judge) to provide a birth certificate for someone who happens to be my GF(and father of my mother) and who has got a death certificate, marriage certificate and a pasport or ID card. That seems not a lot to ask.

Anybody know how you can get around this or somebody who has a similar situation? Any advice on this?

Byt
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Re: Impossible to find birth certificate in Argentina

Postby Granadaiscool » 08 Sep 2012, 20:24

I am looking for the following birth certificate or Bautism act

Hugo Luis Russo, born in 1919 in Capital federal, father Giovanni Russo and Rosa Ierace, married to Hedewigis Caminos in Argentina.

Can sombody give me some leads?
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Re: Impossible to find birth certificate in Argentina

Postby jennabet » 10 Sep 2012, 11:44

Granadaiscool wrote:
jennabet wrote:.....I have been told by the consulate that as long the orignal birth certificate doesn't show up there is no chance to get the Italian citizenship. They also told me that if there is a intervention by the judge they won't accept that document. It must be the orignal certificate......

Of course you have as it only makes sense. But I'm sorry you have apparently come across incorrect information in these forums from people (mostly using the New York Consulate) who have similar problems and have spread rumors that the consulates will accept birth certificates that have been created for a deceased person. However, when the consulate says to "find the birth certificate", it does not mean create a new one.


I am sorry but it would not be 'create a new one' just asking the Argentine state(by intervention of a judge) to provide a birth certificate for someone who happens to be my GF(and father of my mother) and who has got a death certificate, marriage certificate and a pasport or ID card. That seems not a lot to ask.

Anybody know how you can get around this or somebody who has a similar situation? Any advice on this?

Byt


A death certificate, marriage certificate and passport or ID card does not prove anyone's date and place of birth and a judge's intervention doesn't prove it either and this is why the consulate will accept nothing other than the original birth certificate recorded at the time of birth or a copy of the original.
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Re: Impossible to find birth certificate in Argentina

Postby kontessa » 10 Sep 2012, 21:06

Granadaiscool wrote:Is it true the Italian state won't accept the birth certificate if it's not the orignal one?

It is possible to have a delayed record of birth accepted as part of a jure sanguinis citizenship application. I applied for citizenship in Italy, and had a delayed record of birth accepted for a family member in my direct line. However, if the consulate that you are dealing with has insisted that they will not accept one, you have your work cut out for you in trying to convince them otherwise.
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Re: Impossible to find birth certificate in Argentina

Postby kontessa » 10 Sep 2012, 21:12

jennabet wrote:But I'm sorry you have apparently come across incorrect information in these forums from people (mostly using the New York Consulate) who have similar problems and have spread rumors that the consulates will accept birth certificates that have been created for a deceased person. However, when the consulate says to "find the birth certificate", it does not mean create a new one.


With all due respect, it IS possible to have a delayed record of birth created for a deceased person. It isn't a rumor, nor misinformation.
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Re: Impossible to find birth certificate in Argentina

Postby Granadaiscool » 10 Sep 2012, 21:22

kontessa wrote:
jennabet wrote:But I'm sorry you have apparently come across incorrect information in these forums from people (mostly using the New York Consulate) who have similar problems and have spread rumors that the consulates will accept birth certificates that have been created for a deceased person. However, when the consulate says to "find the birth certificate", it does not mean create a new one.


With all due respect, it IS possible to have a delayed record of birth created for a deceased person. It isn't a rumor, nor misinformation.


Can you give me some more information about it, and even better if it's part of an official law?

All the information I recieve here and what the consulate told me is that if the orignal birthcertifcate doesnt show up I Can't submit the papers.

I can imagine this is done due to earlier cases of fraud but in my case I can prove with death, marriagecertificate and the libreta(former DNI or ID card) this person is indeed the same person. If the judge can recognize this case this would probally solve my case.
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Re: Impossible to find birth certificate in Argentina

Postby Granadaiscool » 10 Sep 2012, 21:32

kontessa wrote:
Granadaiscool wrote:Is it true the Italian state won't accept the birth certificate if it's not the orignal one?

It is possible to have a delayed record of birth accepted as part of a jure sanguinis citizenship application. I applied for citizenship in Italy, and had a delayed record of birth accepted for a family member in my direct line. However, if the consulate that you are dealing with has insisted that they will not accept one, you have your work cut out for you in trying to convince them otherwise.


Due to Schooling reasons I will be in Argentina for the next 2,3 years but applying in Italy will be quite easy for me so I will definitly be interested to know how your situation is going along or was.

I am guessing to be able to have the Italian nationality by early 2015 I will probally need to have my case ready within the next 6-8 months. Otherwise it would probally make more sense to go straight to Italy after I graduate.
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Re: Impossible to find birth certificate in Argentina

Postby kontessa » 11 Sep 2012, 14:31

I did read online at one time or another, that there had been problems with the falsification of documents coming out of either Argentina and/or Brazil. Guess that consulate you're dealing with in Argentina could provide more insight as to whether or not this has anything to do with their decision to accept only an original birth record.

Don't think that there is any law that states what TYPE of birth record is acceptable for citizenship cases, but most likely that it be recognized by the country of issue as a legal record of birth. I'm no expert about this stuff - I can look through some of the actual Italian documentation in re to requirements. Who knows...there may have been a directive issued to consular staff about this type of thing, too. (Am not sure I'd even be able to find that.)

Edited to add...just because you apply for citizenship in Italy doesn't mean that all will be smooth sailing, or that you'll be out of reach from any consulate that has jurisdiction over the documents that you submit there. Simply put, your comune official in Italy may need to involve that consulate in Argentina if they have jurisdiction over the area where the document was issued.
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Re: Impossible to find birth certificate in Argentina

Postby kontessa » 11 Sep 2012, 14:48

Granadaiscool wrote:Due to Schooling reasons I will be in Argentina for the next 2,3 years but applying in Italy will be quite easy for me so I will definitly be interested to know how your situation is going along or was.


My citizenship was recognized in 2010 - it took about 10 months to process once my paperwork was finally accepted. It was a costly, anxiety-ridden nightmare with a wonderful outcome. :lol:
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Re: Impossible to find birth certificate in Argentina

Postby kontessa » 11 Sep 2012, 14:50

Btw, have you discovered http://www.tuttostranieri.it/forum/?
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Re: Impossible to find birth certificate in Argentina

Postby Granadaiscool » 11 Sep 2012, 17:29

kontessa wrote:
Granadaiscool wrote:Due to Schooling reasons I will be in Argentina for the next 2,3 years but applying in Italy will be quite easy for me so I will definitly be interested to know how your situation is going along or was.


My citizenship was recognized in 2010 - it took about 10 months to process once my paperwork was finally accepted. It was a costly, anxiety-ridden nightmare with a wonderful outcome. :lol:


Thanks, what was your relation to the person of the delated death certificate? In my case it's my GF(or my mom's father)

How did you get the delayed certificate?
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Re: Impossible to find birth certificate in Argentina

Postby Granadaiscool » 11 Sep 2012, 17:35

kontessa wrote:I did read online at one time or another, that there had been problems with the falsification of documents coming out of either Argentina and/or Brazil. Guess that consulate you're dealing with in Argentina could provide more insight as to whether or not this has anything to do with their decision to accept only an original birth record.

Don't think that there is any law that states what TYPE of birth record is acceptable for citizenship cases, but most likely that it be recognized by the country of issue as a legal record of birth. I'm no expert about this stuff - I can look through some of the actual Italian documentation in re to requirements. Who knows...there may have been a directive issued to consular staff about this type of thing, too. (Am not sure I'd even be able to find that.)

Edited to add...just because you apply for citizenship in Italy doesn't mean that all will be smooth sailing, or that you'll be out of reach from any consulate that has jurisdiction over the documents that you submit there. Simply put, your comune official in Italy may need to involve that consulate in Argentina if they have jurisdiction over the area where the document was issued.


I am guessing the problem with the Argentine consulate is indeed the persons who applied with false documents, it's only a pity for me because in my case it will be 100% genuine.

Can somebody give me some advice to proceed with my case?
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