Impossible to find birth certificate in Argentina

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Re: Impossible to find birth certificate in Argentina

Postby kontessa » 11 Sep 2012, 19:38

Granadaiscool wrote:Thanks, what was your relation to the person of the delated death certificate? In my case it's my GF(or my mom's father)


In my case it was my GF - my mother's father.

Granadaiscool wrote:How did you get the delayed certificate?


Actually, there is a legal mechanism in NYS to create a birth record that has never been created or filed with the state. It's not done willy-nilly like someone on this forum might suggest, but by following a set of criteria established by the state. You must submit evidentiary documentation that is deemed sufficient to prove the facts of birth. A number of other states have similar procedures. Does a mechanism exist where you intend to have a delayed record created? Will it be recognized as a legal record of birth?
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Re: Impossible to find birth certificate in Argentina

Postby Granadaiscool » 11 Sep 2012, 19:48

kontessa wrote:Actually, there is a legal mechanism in NYS to create a birth record that has never been created or filed with the state. It's not done willy-nilly like someone on this forum might suggest, but by following a set of criteria established by the state. You must submit evidentiary documentation that is deemed sufficient to prove the facts of birth. A number of other states have similar procedures. Does a mechanism exist where you intend to have a delayed record created? Will it be recognized as a legal record of birth?


The way I understand it now is that a lawyer can ask for the intervention of the judge and the judge will then ask the registro civil for more information about this specific case. If this results into a 'negative' the judge will then have the power to recognize the birth-certificate and I am sure this will be an official document for the Argentine state.

If this also the case for the Italian state I would like to know, my consulate they don't accept it, but according to you in your case they accepted it in Italy?

The weird part is that I have yet to find somebody with a similar case in Argentina and that most agencies who I contacted won't take my case because they see it as complicated.

Anybody knows if Italians abroad were required to register there foreign born kid at the consulate and if those records are available to the public?
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Re: Impossible to find birth certificate in Argentina

Postby kontessa » 11 Sep 2012, 23:19

Granadaiscool wrote:If this also the case for the Italian state...

A little confused by this statement. I don't know anything about the creation of a delayed birth record IN ITALY, only that one was accepted as part of my application. Is this what you meant?


Granadaiscool wrote:Anybody knows if Italians abroad were required to register there foreign born kid at the consulate and if those records are available to the public?


Yes, I do believe that Italians abroad were required to register the births of their children, but I don't know the particulars, like when the consulates started doing this. Were your relatives already registered at the consulate (in AIRE)? If yes, I believe that the comune in Italy would then be able to issue you copies.
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Re: Impossible to find birth certificate in Argentina

Postby Granadaiscool » 12 Sep 2012, 16:19

kontessa wrote:A little confused by this statement. I don't know anything about the creation of a delayed birth record IN ITALY, only that one was accepted as part of my application. Is this what you meant?


I might have wrote it wrong but I meant that if the Argentine state legalizes the delayed birth certificate of my GF it will also be accepted by the Italian state? The consulate of BA told me they wont accept it but if it's accepted in Italy that could be a sollution for me.

kontessa wrote:Yes, I do believe that Italians abroad were required to register the births of their children, but I don't know the particulars, like when the consulates started doing this. Were your relatives already registered at the consulate (in AIRE)? If yes, I believe that the comune in Italy would then be able to issue you copies.


I do find it hard to believe as it was the 1910's but anybody got any information on this? Even if somebody tried to get this information from a different consulate?

I do have the birth-certificate of my GGF in Italy, but I am not 100% this is the correct Birth certificate because the mother on the birth-certificate and death-certificate don't coincide as well as the DOB.

Would it make sense for me to ask the commune(gioa Tauro in my case) to ask information on my GGF? Has anybody done this? Would this work?
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Re: Impossible to find birth certificate in Argentina

Postby Granadaiscool » 12 Sep 2012, 16:37

Does anybody have a link to an active Argentine forum that talks about this issue?

I have heard that all certificates in Argentina will be/are (digtally) stored in LP, anybody knows if this the truth?

Thanks,
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Re: Impossible to find birth certificate in Argentina

Postby jennabet » 13 Sep 2012, 11:09

kontessa wrote:
.....Yes, I do believe that Italians abroad were required to register the births of their children, but I don't know the particulars, like when the consulates started doing this. Were your relatives already registered at the consulate (in AIRE)? If yes, I believe that the comune in Italy would then be able to issue you copies......

If Italians abroad were required to register the births of their children, why did I (a grand-daughter) have to gather my own family documents and submit them myself to my consulate in order to be recognized? All four of my grand-parents were born in Italy and immigrated to America. None of them filed anything with an Italian consulate. I had to do it all.
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Re: Impossible to find birth certificate in Argentina

Postby jennabet » 13 Sep 2012, 11:28

Granadaiscool wrote:
kontessa wrote:Actually, there is a legal mechanism in NYS to create a birth record that has never been created or filed with the state. It's not done willy-nilly like someone on this forum might suggest, but by following a set of criteria established by the state. You must submit evidentiary documentation that is deemed sufficient to prove the facts of birth. A number of other states have similar procedures. Does a mechanism exist where you intend to have a delayed record created? Will it be recognized as a legal record of birth?


The way I understand it now is that a lawyer can ask for the intervention of the judge and the judge will then ask the registro civil for more information about this specific case. If this results into a 'negative' the judge will then have the power to recognize the birth-certificate and I am sure this will be an official document for the Argentine state.

If this also the case for the Italian state I would like to know, my consulate they don't accept it, but according to you in your case they accepted it in Italy?

The weird part is that I have yet to find somebody with a similar case in Argentina and that most agencies who I contacted won't take my case because they see it as complicated.

Anybody knows if Italians abroad were required to register there foreign born kid at the consulate and if those records are available to the public?


Granadaiscool, first if you will be a student in Argentina for the next two or three years, you cannot apply in Italy during that time. In order to apply in Italy, you must be a legal resident of Italy.

Next, there may be a legal mechanism in New York State to create a birth certificate for a deceased person but Kontessa must provide this forum with the name of the Comune in Italy that accepted such a document so that I, for one, can either call that Comune myself or have an Italian lawyer friend call and confirm that it does in fact accept such documentation for a citizenship recognition case. Personally, I find this very hard to believe as a delayed birth certificate created for a deceased person does not prove the date and place of birth no matter how much "evidence" you have. Of course, depending on the amount of money you're willing to spend you can get the state of New York to make up anything you ask for. It doesn't mean it's true. The Consulates know this and I would think the Comunes know it too.
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Re: Impossible to find birth certificate in Argentina

Postby Granadaiscool » 13 Sep 2012, 15:47

jennabet wrote:Granadaiscool, first if you will be a student in Argentina for the next two or three years, you cannot apply in Italy during that time. In order to apply in Italy, you must be a legal resident of Italy.


I know what is needed for residency in Italy and I will have no problem going for that route if I decide to go that route. Right now I prefer Argentina and leave Argentina with an Italian passport

jennabet wrote:Next, there may be a legal mechanism in New York State to create a birth certificate for a deceased person but Kontessa must provide this forum with the name of the Comune in Italy that accepted such a document so that I, for one, can either call that Comune myself or have an Italian lawyer friend call and confirm that it does in fact accept such documentation for a citizenship recognition case. Personally, I find this very hard to believe as a delayed birth certificate created for a deceased person does not prove the date and place of birth no matter how much "evidence" you have. Of course, depending on the amount of money you're willing to spend you can get the state of New York to make up anything you ask for. It doesn't mean it's true. The Consulates know this and I would think the Comunes know it too.


Why does a delayed birthcertificate not state the date and place of birth?

I can provide 3 documents that state that
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Re: Impossible to find birth certificate in Argentina

Postby jennabet » 13 Sep 2012, 16:53

Granadaiscool wrote:
jennabet wrote:Granadaiscool, first if you will be a student in Argentina for the next two or three years, you cannot apply in Italy during that time. In order to apply in Italy, you must be a legal resident of Italy.


I know what is needed for residency in Italy and I will have no problem going for that route if I decide to go that route. Right now I prefer Argentina and leave Argentina with an Italian passport

jennabet wrote:Next, there may be a legal mechanism in New York State to create a birth certificate for a deceased person but Kontessa must provide this forum with the name of the Comune in Italy that accepted such a document so that I, for one, can either call that Comune myself or have an Italian lawyer friend call and confirm that it does in fact accept such documentation for a citizenship recognition case. Personally, I find this very hard to believe as a delayed birth certificate created for a deceased person does not prove the date and place of birth no matter how much "evidence" you have. Of course, depending on the amount of money you're willing to spend you can get the state of New York to make up anything you ask for. It doesn't mean it's true. The Consulates know this and I would think the Comunes know it too.


Why does a delayed birthcertificate not state the date and place of birth?

I can provide 3 documents that state that


WOW, some people just don't get it. You Consulate already told you that without the original birth certificate, citizenship recognition will not be possible. Why don't you ask them WHY?
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Re: Impossible to find birth certificate in Argentina

Postby JJ313 » 13 Sep 2012, 16:56

Under Law number 470 of 27 October, 1988, Italian citizens who depart and remain outside the territory for a continuous period of 12 months or more are required, within 90 days from the date of departure from Italian territory, to register with the Italian Consular Office that has jurisdiction over their residence.

A delayed birth certificate upon issuance by the agency duly appointed in a jurisdiction to issue such records IS an official record of birth.
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Re: Impossible to find birth certificate in Argentina

Postby kontessa » 13 Sep 2012, 17:36

jennabet wrote:kontessa wrote:
.....Yes, I do believe that Italians abroad were required to register the births of their children, but I don't know the particulars, like when the consulates started doing this. Were your relatives already registered at the consulate (in AIRE)? If yes, I believe that the comune in Italy would then be able to issue you copies......

If Italians abroad were required to register the births of their children, why did I (a grand-daughter) have to gather my own family documents and submit them myself to my consulate in order to be recognized? All four of my grand-parents were born in Italy and immigrated to America. None of them filed anything with an Italian consulate. I had to do it all.


If you read my post, you'll note in the first sentence that I admit to not knowing WHEN consulates started requiring the registrations of births. Why you had to do anything has no relevancy.
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Re: Impossible to find birth certificate in Argentina

Postby kontessa » 13 Sep 2012, 18:03

jennabet wrote:Next, there may be a legal mechanism in New York State to create a birth certificate for a deceased person but Kontessa must provide this forum with the name of the Comune in Italy that accepted such a document so that I, for one, can either call that Comune myself or have an Italian lawyer friend call and confirm that it does in fact accept such documentation for a citizenship recognition case.


You don't believe something is possible, so that makes it impossible? I would recommend that you contact the consulate in NYC first - since they were the Italian authorities outside of Italy that authenticated the document for use in Italy - and inquire as to why a delayed record of birth might be an acceptable document. Then, you might want to do some actual research about how the legal system operates, or maybe google evidentiary documentation, proof or perhaps even try to find some scholarly articles that might set your mind at ease. It happened. It was done legally. Nothing illicit going on here and for you to suggest as much is ridiculous.
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Re: Impossible to find birth certificate in Argentina

Postby kontessa » 13 Sep 2012, 18:16

To the OP, try to sort through the noise. :D
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Re: Impossible to find birth certificate in Argentina

Postby Granadaiscool » 13 Sep 2012, 21:44

JJ313 wrote:Under Law number 470 of 27 October, 1988, Italian citizens who depart and remain outside the territory for a continuous period of 12 months or more are required, within 90 days from the date of departure from Italian territory, to register with the Italian Consular Office that has jurisdiction over their residence.

A delayed birth certificate upon issuance by the agency duly appointed in a jurisdiction to issue such records IS an official record of birth.


Thanks for this information and especially your non bitchy tone :)

Either way, my GGF emigrated to Argentina in 1897/1898, I am looking for the birth certificate of his son(Hugo Luis, born in 1918 in Capital Federal)

So unless he registered his son at the consulate I don't think there was any record of my GF at the consulate. My GGF(Giovanni/Juan Russo, born 1883 in Goia Tauro) was unmarried at the time his son Hugo Luis was born so that might have complicated things. Hugo Luis did however get the last name of his father, which is Russo.

Does anybody know how marriage was seen at the time and how it could complicate the registery of children?

Some more information. The marriage certificate of Hugo Luis Russo says he was born in 1918 in Capital Federal, but no further information was given. I also have his marriage certifcate but when I started to look for the document number of the bautism the church could not find a record(unfortunatly 2 different churches, marriage cuidad Evita and bautism in Palermo, Capital federal)

I think the reason there isn't a bautism act must be because the father and mother were unmarried(due to the mum not having idenity papers because she was born/from a orphanage) at the time of the bautism, so that might be the reason.

I think it's also possible that he was never officially bautised and only 'recognized'(don't know how to say it but the church could give you some kind of bautism as an adult) and that's the reason why there are no records.
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Re: Impossible to find birth certificate in Argentina

Postby jennabet » 13 Sep 2012, 22:13

.....Under Law number 470 of 27 October, 1988, Italian citizens who depart and remain outside the territory for a continuous period of 12 months or more are required, within 90 days from the date of departure from Italian territory, to register with the Italian Consular Office that has jurisdiction over their residence.....

This depends entirely on the type of travel involved. If you're moving from place to place and have stamps in your Italian passport as proof, you do not have to register at a consulate within 90 days of departure. AND if you have been in the same country outside of Italy for one year, you were supposed to have applied for a visa in Italy at that country's consulate before you departed. In this case, Italy would already know where you were.
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