Discuss. Contributions of Newly Recognized Citizens

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
11 posts • Page 1 of 1

Discuss. Contributions of Newly Recognized Citizens

Postby jennabet » 27 Aug 2013, 15:16

I was wondering if anyone can contribute to a discussion on how much (financially) newly recognized Italian citizens may have already contributed or may contribute in the future to the Italian economy? I would think that since so many Italians from around the world are continuing to be recognized as citizens that perhaps the Italian government and it's economists may have done some studies/projections on this subject and it might be beneficial for all those eligible for recognition to be aware of at least a ballpark figure.
jennabet
Master
Master
 
Posts: 854
Joined: 14 Jul 2010, 20:28
Location: Ancestral Homeland - Abruzzo Italy

Re: Discuss. Contributions of Newly Recognized Citizens

Postby droe » 28 Aug 2013, 03:27

jennabet wrote:I was wondering if anyone can contribute to a discussion on how much (financially) newly recognized Italian citizens may have already contributed or may contribute in the future to the Italian economy?


Interesting topic. I don't know how one would come up with a model or with any basis that would determine contributions to the Italian economy without research centered on the plans of the newly recognized along with tracking to document actual revenue realized.

Other than document requests one would need to determine what revenue if any is generated during the pre-recognization phase. Visiting would be already counted under the toursit area and hard to qualify in most cases. It is not a well defined or documented area unlike those you can track via visas.

In my case being recognized finalized plans for the future.

We now have an apartment in the Rome area and spent 3 months a year there currently. In less than 11 months from now we will be permanent residents. I believe we are exceptions to the rule as not a large number of newly recognized folks do so with a plan to take up permanent residence in Italy.

I think without concrete numbers based on relocation, property purchases it would be hard to put a monetary figure on how newly recognized citizens effect the economy if at all.

Intersting thing to put a number on if one could really define the parameters.
droe
Rookie
Rookie
 
Posts: 42
Joined: 16 May 2012, 22:08
Location: New York

Re: Discuss. Contributions of Newly Recognized Citizens

Postby jennabet » 28 Aug 2013, 10:42

Droe, in my own circle, I know several retired Americans like myself, some whom I've met through these websites, that have obtained the passport and moved over here but I'm looking for some real numbers, both present and future.

Specifically, I'd like to obtain this info so I can rebutt the opinion of an acquaintance I unfortunately bumped into yesterday who literally ruined my day. This person, an American from New Jersey (non-Italian) who became a naturalized Italian citizen through marriage and has lived here in Italy several years says that, "You people (Italian-Americans) and the African boat people that keep coming here are availing yourselves of our benefits when you never paid into our system and there is going to be nothing left for us and our descendants".

But I maintain that as a dual citizen born in the USA who was steadily employed for nearly 40 years, I paid into US Social Security and was also paying into the Italian system because Italy has a Tax Treaty with the USA (and other countries where Italian citizens reside) and this might be Italy's reasoning in recognizing it's citizens around the world, in hopes that their eventual return with income earned elsewhere will generate revenue.

I know for sure that the money we spend here would not go into the Italian economy if we were spending it in the USA and as I said earlier, I already paid for and am still paying for (via the IRS) the excellent healthcare I receive in Italy without having to pay extortion fees to insurance companies in the USA.

At any rate, when you're in Italy, would you equate yourself with an African citizen who arrived in Italy illegally in a rickety, old boat or do you consider yourself a productive member of society not looking for any hand-outs? Again, would love to have some real numbers on how much citizens like ourselves are contributing to the Italian economy.
jennabet
Master
Master
 
Posts: 854
Joined: 14 Jul 2010, 20:28
Location: Ancestral Homeland - Abruzzo Italy

Re: Discuss. Contributions of Newly Recognized Citizens

Postby mler » 28 Aug 2013, 14:01

Jennabet, don't let ignorant people ruin your day. You are living in Italy, paying taxes in Italy, and spending your money in Italy. If your acquaintance has only recently moved to Italy, he is not contributing any more than you. You don't have anything to prove.
User avatar
mler
Master
Master
 
Posts: 1487
Joined: 01 Apr 2006, 00:00

Re: Discuss. Contributions of Newly Recognized Citizens

Postby jennabet » 28 Aug 2013, 17:18

Incidentally, this particular American acquaintance and I have a mutual friend who is Italian-Canadian. Interestingly enough, the Canadian doesn't receive the brow beating from the American regarding the use of Italian health benefits the way the Italian-Americans do, probably because the Canadian's other country also utilizes socialized medicine. But the last time I checked, Italy wasn't recognizing it's citizens based on whether or not the country they were living in had socialized medicine.
jennabet
Master
Master
 
Posts: 854
Joined: 14 Jul 2010, 20:28
Location: Ancestral Homeland - Abruzzo Italy

Re: Discuss. Contributions of Newly Recognized Citizens

Postby mler » 28 Aug 2013, 18:07

That's just flawed reasoning on his/her part. Your use of the Italian health system is no different from the use by the Italian-Canadian. When the Italian-Canadian was in Canada, none of his taxes went toward the Italian health system. It went to Canada's health system.

Maybe this acquaintance should consider how much he/she contributed to the Italian system before he naturalized and began living in Italy. Unless his salary is huge, my guess is that he's taking more out of the system than he's putting into it. Of course, he won't see it that way.
User avatar
mler
Master
Master
 
Posts: 1487
Joined: 01 Apr 2006, 00:00

Re: Discuss. Contributions of Newly Recognized Citizens

Postby droe » 28 Aug 2013, 21:05

Wow you need to make better acquaintances. What a narrow minded outlook on their importance. Now to make a little joke, being a New Yorker .... what do you expect they came from New Jersey :)

I would not let them ruin your day and I would not waste any productive time gathering facts that I am sure they can discount with out regard to any of the facts.

Every time you buy something, spend money for rent, fuel, food, etc you are adding to the local economy. If you should work you pay taxes, now maybe not to Italy directly as the USA is the only country that chases its people around the globe for their piece of the pie. So you have to be financially smart. That does not mean you don't add to the economy.

I would say that this person is part of the reason why Americans are seen the way they are in many countries, not just Italy. The one thing that stands out to me is how rude many are and how many have no respect for local customs or culture. And God forbid they try to speak a word of Italian - at least thank you!

I know when we first arrived in my family's village for our first extened visit we offered to voulunteer at the school the looks we got were strange.

Now we look forward to our visits and my wife has more kids wanting to learn english than she can handle. I get to do some computer skills stuff and teach photgraphy. I think we have met every one of the 900 folks who live there. It is a blast and we look forward to the month a year we spend there. We feel more at home there than in the US.

Shake it off and know some people just don't get it. Forget about this person and enjoy .... you are living Italy.
droe
Rookie
Rookie
 
Posts: 42
Joined: 16 May 2012, 22:08
Location: New York

Re: Discuss. Contributions of Newly Recognized Citizens

Postby Steverino3006 » 29 Aug 2013, 06:21

how about this for our contributions?

http://battlefieldsww2.50megs.com/italy_cemeteries.htm

or, more recently, our carrying the ball for Europe's, including Italy's, defense?
User avatar
Steverino3006
Rookie
Rookie
 
Posts: 77
Joined: 26 Mar 2009, 15:21

Re: Discuss. Contributions of Newly Recognized Citizens

Postby Italysearcher » 29 Aug 2013, 09:00

As far as I know (and I'm not an expert) the Tax Treaty just mans that if you paid tax on your income in one country, you don't pay in the other. SO, my Canadian pension, on which I pay tax in Canada, is not subject to tax in Italy. The treaty has nothing to do with health care. After an absence of 6 months I am not entitled to Canadian health care any more.
I don't believe America contributes in any other way to the Italian economy just because it has dual citizens. Up until about 20 years ago America didn't even permit its citizens to have any other citizenship.
Actually, people applying for Italian citizenship from overseas who have no intention of living here cost Italy money in the endless paperwork involved in registering all the documents to create a line of eligibility. Then the new citizen gets the right to vote in a country they may never have visited, requiring Italian taxpayers to support delegates from other countries, providing exorbitant pensions etc. (A Berlusconi bright idea!)
Dual citizens who come to live in Italy, contribute in the same way as other Italians, maybe a little more as they don't know their way around the system. They often spend money fixing up the old family home and spend their foreign pension money here.
If there are any newly recognized citizens who want to contribute to a fund to restore parish records that is something I am working on. Sora, Supino, Patrica, Colle San Magno, are now in progress.
Ann Tatangelo
http://angelresearch.wordpress.com
ANNOYING THE SAINTS - Stories of my Life in Italy. http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback-b ... ly/7731505
User avatar
Italysearcher
Master
Master
 
Posts: 1440
Joined: 06 Jan 2008, 20:58
Location: Sora, Italy

Re: Discuss. Contributions of Newly Recognized Citizens

Postby jennabet » 29 Aug 2013, 15:17

[quote="Italysearcher"]As far as I know (and I'm not an expert) the Tax Treaty just mans that if you paid tax on your income in one country, you don't pay in the other. SO, my Canadian pension, on which I pay tax in Canada, is not subject to tax in Italy. The treaty has nothing to do with health care. After an absence of 6 months I am not entitled to Canadian health care any more.
I don't believe America contributes in any other way to the Italian economy just because it has dual citizens. Up until about 20 years ago America didn't even permit its citizens to have any other citizenship.

Ann you are mistaken about the USA and dual citizenship. At least as far back as 1964, many Americans had dual citizenship with Israel and many still do. And whether or not the person has dual citizenship is not the decision of the USA. The country of origin decides if it recognizes a person as it's citizen even though that person may have US citizenship as well.

I also disagree that payroll taxes don't have anything to do with the healthcare that is available in Italy. Where else does the money for healthcare come from? Italian citizens living in Italy paid into it and Italian citizens living in the USA also paid into it. A Canadian citizen who is no longer covered in Canada and who is not an Italian citizen would have to pay for healthcare in Italy. Foreigners living in Italy seem to be generally confused about the rights of Italian citizens around the world once they come back to Italy. They are not foreigners when they come back to Italy. They are Italians, just like Italians who never left Italy. If those expatriate Italians were paying into social security benefits anywhere in the world and their country of residence has a tax treaty with Italy, they paid into their Italian benefits. You seem to have the same, exact mis-understanding that my acquaintance, also a foreigner (now naturalized) has. You don't understand the concept of dual citizenship recognized jure sanguinis.
jennabet
Master
Master
 
Posts: 854
Joined: 14 Jul 2010, 20:28
Location: Ancestral Homeland - Abruzzo Italy

Re: Discuss. Contributions of Newly Recognized Citizens

Postby mler » 29 Aug 2013, 17:14

jennabet wrote:I also disagree that payroll taxes don't have anything to do with the healthcare that is available in Italy. Where else does the money for healthcare come from? Italian citizens living in Italy paid into it and Italian citizens living in the USA also paid into it. A Canadian citizen who is no longer covered in Canada and who is not an Italian citizen would have to pay for healthcare in Italy. Foreigners living in Italy seem to be generally confused about the rights of Italian citizens around the world once they come back to Italy. They are not foreigners when they come back to Italy. They are Italians, just like Italians who never left Italy.

I agree that an Italian citizen living in the US, Canada or anywhere else is not treated as a foreigner when he returns to live in Italy. Nor should he be. A citizen is a citizen. But I think the dual citizenship issues complicates things a bit.

For example, an Italian who works in an Italian consulate in the US and is not a dual citizen pays all his income taxes to Italy. But because he lives in the US, he pays sales taxes and maybe property taxes in the US. He is not entitled to social security benefits because he does not pay into the system, but he receives the police/fire protection and other government services that all residents enjoy.

I am a dual citizen living in the US, and none of my tax money goes to Italy. The IRS doesn't know and doesn't care if I hold another citizenship. It takes my money and keeps it all. I am entitled to Social Security benefits because I paid into the system.

However, you are a dual citizen living in Italy so (correct me if I'm wrong) you pay taxes to Italy, and you only have to pay US taxes if you go over a certain amount of income in Italy. You are entitled to Social Security benefits because you paid into the system when you worked in the US. You do not receive a pension from Italy because you didn't contribute to an Italian pension. You DO, however, pay taxes in Italy now because you live in Italy now, and though you may not be entitled to an Italian pension, you ARE entitled to the other benefits that are supported by your taxes.

I think it's unfair to say that since, when you lived in the US you didn't pay taxes to Italy, you are taking advantage of the system. You may not have paid taxes to Italy when you lived in the US, but you also didn't take any benefits to which Italian citizens are entitled. You receive those benefits now because you are an Italian citizen living in Italy, and you certainly don't need to justify this to anyone.

And Steverino does make a point. The US has made major financial contributions to the well being of Europe and as a tax paying American, it was your taxes that helped pay for this.
User avatar
mler
Master
Master
 
Posts: 1487
Joined: 01 Apr 2006, 00:00


11 posts • Page 1 of 1

Return to Emigration, Immigration, Naturalization and Italian citizenship

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

Copyright © 2014. www.ItalianGenealogy.com.