GF's NYC birth certificate - Appeals Court

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GF's NYC birth certificate - Appeals Court

Postby MiaCarelli » 18 Jun 2014, 16:11

Over a year ago I filed a court proceeding in Manhattan for my GF's birth certificate. The judge signed the Order and the Italian Consulate accepted it as proof and granted me citizenship. However the City would not provide me with the birth record and subsequently appealed the judge's decision. Unfortunately, the Appeals Court has unanimously reversed the original judge's decision.

Frankly, I don't understand why, but they state that the NYC Health Code "prohibits, among other things, registering or issuing a delayed birth certificate for a deceased person." I thought that the judge's decision would override this, but that is not the case. So now we know.

As others have posted in the past, the only recourse is to get a Declaratory Judgment from the court, which would state that your ancestor was born, etc.

And I also wonder if we even needed to go to Court at all -- I believe that the Consulate would have accepted my GF's baptismal record (and maybe even less than that). There was a completely different attitude from the moment we stepped into the room the second time. And they didn't even request the 2 Census records that I'd been missing at the first visit.

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Re: GF's NYC birth certificate - Appeals Court

Postby carubia » 18 Jun 2014, 17:35

Which consulate was this? Was the original court order for the creation of a delayed birth cert? Did the consulate accept the order at your first appointment as a sufficient record of your GF's birth, pending the issuance of the birth cert? What do you mean by saying that they "granted" you citizenship if then you needed another appointment?

Did you get that declaratory judgment? Is this what you used at your second appointment? Why didn't you show them the baptismal cert at the first appointment?

Is your application complete now?
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Re: GF's NYC birth certificate - Appeals Court

Postby jennabet » 20 Jun 2014, 13:51

MiaCarelli wrote:Over a year ago I filed a court proceeding in Manhattan for my GF's birth certificate. The judge signed the Order and the Italian Consulate accepted it as proof and granted me citizenship. However the City would not provide me with the birth record and subsequently appealed the judge's decision. Unfortunately, the Appeals Court has unanimously reversed the original judge's decision.

Frankly, I don't understand why, but they state that the NYC Health Code "prohibits, among other things, registering or issuing a delayed birth certificate for a deceased person." I thought that the judge's decision would override this, but that is not the case. So now we know.

As others have posted in the past, the only recourse is to get a Declaratory Judgment from the court, which would state that your ancestor was born, etc.

And I also wonder if we even needed to go to Court at all -- I believe that the Consulate would have accepted my GF's baptismal record (and maybe even less than that). There was a completely different attitude from the moment we stepped into the room the second time. And they didn't even request the 2 Census records that I'd been missing at the first visit.

Mia*


I'm glad to see the Appeals Court has some common sense. It never made any sense to me that documents such as a marriage certificate, military papers, death certificate were proof of when and where a deceased person was born, particularly if there are no living witnesses to attest to such a fact. Perhaps we can apply the old adage, "money talks" to your situation. How much did you pay a lawyer to file your court order or how much did it cost if you filed it yourself?

Regarding a Baptismal certificate. A consulate may accept this type of document as proof of birth but anything less than that is doubtful because again, documents that were created later in life simply do not prove when and where a deceased person was born.

Unfortunately there is a lot of mis-information or even totally false information out there by people claiming to have taken these sorts of steps and been granted citizenship, particularly by those claiming to have dealt with the New York consulate. But for all we know, these people could be advocates for lawyers encouraging expensive court proceedings just to make some extra bucks. And what about the consulates? I certainly hope they're being informed that these types of cases are being lost on appeal and that citizenship should not be granted on the basis of a judges order creating a birth record for a deceased person.
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Re: GF's NYC birth certificate - Appeals Court

Postby johnnyonthespot » 20 Jun 2014, 14:10

jennabet wrote:I'm glad to see the Appeals Court has some common sense. It never made any sense to me that documents such as a marriage certificate, military papers, death certificate were proof of when and where a deceased person was born, particularly if there are no living witnesses to attest to such a fact. Perhaps we can apply the old adage, "money talks" to your situation. How much did you pay a lawyer to file your court order or how much did it cost if you filed it yourself?
...


I see your point, however I have to state that my Connecticut marriage license accurately attests to my place of birth, my parent's names, my wife's place of birth, and her parent's names for the simple reason that we were required to present certified copies of our birth certificates when we applied for the license. Perhaps not every place is the same, but I think in the US this is more often the rule than not (just as it is/was in Italy).

As to the New York consulate, everything I read on every board that I follow would indicate that the consulate is much more difficult to work with today than when I was recognized in 2008.
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Re: GF's NYC birth certificate - Appeals Court

Postby MiaCarelli » 20 Jun 2014, 19:11

Hi,

I'm sorry if my post was confusing, but there have been a lot of steps in this process. See my previous posts for more details. Here's what happened:

We applied for Citizenship with the NYC Consulate and waited nearly a year for an appointment in early 2012. They were very strict, accepted no papers and said they needed the following items: a Court Order for GF's NYC B.C., the actual certificate from Vital Records and 2 additional Census records. I felt we had a very good application for the 1st appointment, but were missing that one document (our GGF was born in Italy).

After that, I subsequently found my GF's baptismal record and the 2 Census records (which were so bad they would be useless).

We filed with the Supreme Court in late 2012 and requested my GF's delayed birth record. I drafted some of the initial papers and hired an attorney referred by the Bar Association since I couldn't find anyone else to handle it. The Judge agreed we had established his birth and ordered Vital Records to provide the B.C. However Vital Records refused to provide it.

2nd Appointment with NYC Consulate in early 2013. Although the Consulate had requested the B.C., they accepted the judge's Order. I gave them his baptismal record but they didn't take the translation and they never asked for the 2 Census records they initially said we needed. We were granted Citizenship within a few weeks.

Late 2013 -- NYC appeals the case -- who knew??? I did want to respond, despite the fact that I no longer needed the B.C. I drafted the papers and got feedback from 2 lawyer friends, argued the case myself in court. Total cost for Appeal: about $80 for the printed papers to file and a lot of time and aggravation.

Although the Supreme Court's decision was reversed on Appeal, the Appeals Court agreed that I had established my GF's birth. I never requested a declaratory judgment, but I would recommend this to anyone filing in NYC in the future. (I ended up having that as part of the judge's order since she stated that GF was born on date with parents, etc.) That would be simpler with no involvement of Vital Records and therefore no complications. And now it's on the record that NYC Vital Records cannot provide a B.C.

Hope this helps!

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